Question for Atheists

Originally posted by dj2becker
I was not speaking about morals, even pigs have morals.

Are you going to answer my question or not? Is it absolutely wrong to rape and murder an innocent 2 year old baby? If your answer is yes, then why so? And if your answer is no, then why so?

I believe it is wrong. Some people do not. Therefore, it cannot be said to be "absolutely" wrong.

[edit; of course, I also believe those people to be wrong, as do most others. Do you think it is absolutely wrong for women to be forced into arranged marriages?]

Originally posted by stocken
Why? Are you going to tell me that if I'm absolutely sure there's no
"absolute" version of right and wrong, then I'm contradicting myself? Try
another one, 'cause that one just won't work logically.

Yes, I'm absolutely sure there's no absolute right and wrong. If there were,
nature would collapse in matter of years. See, there are times when killing ...[text shortened]... so there's no
absolute moral law imprinted in us that says murder is always wrong.

Yes, I'm absolutely sure there's no absolute right and wrong.

You cannot be absolutely sure about anything if there is no absolute right and wrong.

Take for example your own statement: "There is no absolute right and wrong". How can you consider this statement to be absolutely right if there is no absolute right and wrong?

What you suggest about the 2-year old is never necessary, hence
it's always wrong.

If something is absolutely wrong it means it is always wrong. But I thought you said that there is no absolute right and wrong? How can something be 'always wrong' if there is no absolute right and wrong?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I believe it is wrong. Some people do not. Therefore, it cannot be said to be "absolutely" wrong.

If you wrote in a maths test at preschool that 1+1=3 and you really believed it, would the answer be right or wrong?

Originally posted by dj2becker
My answer to your question is "I believe so, yes".

Now are you going to answer my question?

I can't, because I still don't know what you meant by "absolute". You provided a list of many possible definitions but did not pick the one you meant.

What is "absolutely big"?

Originally posted by dj2becker
If you wrote in a maths test at preschool that 1+1=3 and you really believed it, would the answer be right or wrong?

Logically, the answer would be incorrect.

That is not what we are talking about though, and you know it. You are attempting to discuss morals, but keep goalpost shifting to logic whenever you want to prove that "right" exists. Logical "right" and moral "right" are two completely different things.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
I can't, because I still don't know what you meant by "absolute". You provided a list of many possible definitions but did not pick the one you meant.

What is "absolutely big"?

I can't, because I still don't know what you meant by "absolute". You provided a list of many possible definitions but did not pick the one you meant.

Just for simplicity's sake, if the word 'absolute' is bugging you, use 'completely' instead.

What is "absolutely big"?

God.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Logically, the answer would be incorrect.

That is not what we are talking about though, and you know it. You are attempting to discuss morals, but keep goalpost shifting to logic whenever you want to prove that "right" exists. Logical "right" and moral "right" are two completely different things.

Do you mean to say that that which is morally right is not logically correct? How about truth? Do you mean to say that that which is true for you is not necessarily true for somebody else?

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]I can't, because I still don't know what you meant by "absolute". You provided a list of many possible definitions but did not pick the one you meant.

Just for simplicity's sake, if the word 'absolute' is bugging you, use 'completely' instead.

What is "absolutely big"?

God.[/b]

Does God have infinite volume?

And what does "completely right" and "completely wrong" mean?

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]Yes, I'm absolutely sure there's no absolute right and wrong.

You cannot be absolutely sure about anything if there is no absolute right and wrong.

Take for example your own statement: "There is no absolute right and wrong". How can you consider this statement to be absolutely right if there is no absolute right and wrong?

What you s ...[text shortened]... rong? How can something be 'always wrong' if there is no absolute right and wrong?[/b][/b]

You poor thing. You're all confused and still trying to present a rational
argument. I know what it's like, I've been there. The good news is that if
you stop and think about it a second, it will all get clearer. 🙂

Saying there's no absolute right and wrong with absolute certainty, is
not as you suggest, to adopt an absolute view on what's right and
wrong, but rather to make clear a point of view about right and
wrong. Can you see the subtle, yet incredibly important difference? To
talk about the concept of right and wrong in absolute terms, is
not to say that there are in fact absolute right and wrong.

As for the 2-year old, saying it's always wrong to murder and rape a child
is not the same as saying killing is always wrong. So, again, I'm not
taking your position of absolute right and wrong. Unless, of course, you
would agree that sometimes killing is "justified", in which case not even
you believe in an "absolute" right and wrong.

It's really very simple. Most things we consider wrong are directly
depending on the circumstances. So, the same act may be considered
right in one situation and completely wrong in another. If you can say
that a certain act is always wrong (such as killing), then you have
an absolute wrong. But you can't do that even with your Christian values,
can you?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Does God have infinite volume?

And what does "completely right" and "completely wrong" mean?

Does God have infinite volume?

To tell you the truth, I don't know whether God's volume can be measured by a human being. 😉

And what does "completely right" and "completely wrong" mean?

The same as "absolutely right" and "absolutely wrong"... Think of it as something universal that applies to all people without exceptions...

Originally posted by stocken
You poor thing. You're all confused and still trying to present a rational
argument. I know what it's like, I've been there. The good news is that if
you stop and think about it a second, it will all get clearer. 🙂

Saying there's no absolute right and wrong with absolute certainty, is
not as you suggest, to adopt an absolute view on what's r ...[text shortened]... n absolute wrong. But you can't do that even with your Christian values,
can you?

Do you mean to say that 1+1=2 is not absolutely right?

Originally posted by dj2becker
Do you mean to say that 1+1=2 is not absolutely right?

Are you saying that both right and wrong holds the mathematical value of 1,
hence makes two in addition? That's crazy. Think of right and wrong like
algorithmic X and Y whose values change depending on circumstance and
your silly mathematical analogy might work. Then yes, right+wrong=2 is not
always true, but "right+wrong=dj2becker's confusion" probably would be.

Geez, what next will you think of? 🙄

Originally posted by dj2becker
Do you mean to say that 1+1=2 is not absolutely right?

He did not say that.
Merriam-Webster lists 13 different meanings for 'right' including
2 : being in accordance with what is just, good, or proper
3 : conforming to facts or truth : CORRECT

Stop trying to confuse the two or assert that they are equivalent. That would be absolutely wrong.

Originally posted by stocken
Are you saying that both right and wrong holds the mathematical value of 1,
hence makes two in addition? That's crazy. Think of right and wrong like
algorithmic X and Y whose values change depending on circumstance and
your silly mathematical analogy might work. Then yes, right+wrong=2 is not
always true, but "right+wrong=dj2becker's confusion" probably would be.

Geez, what next will you think of? 🙄

That is not what I said. I asked you whether "1+1=2" is true or not?

Your failure to answer the question speaks volumes.

Originally posted by dj2becker
That is not what I said. I asked you whether "1+1=2" is true or not?

Your failure to answer the question speaks volumes.

I'm sorry. I was still on the topic of right and wrong, and naturally
assumed that your question would somehow relate to that. If we're
talking pure mathematics now and not human moral values, the answer
is of course true.

Then again, it all depends on what 1 means. If by the number 1 you
mean the value of two, but by the number 2 mean the value of one, it's
clearly a false statement. It would then be: 1+1=5, because 5 holds the
value of four items. See? Same with your absolute moral values. There is
no absolute moral value. They're only "absolute" in their given contexts.
Thus, your argument fails.

Or did you really just use mathematics as a completely off topic post just
for the fun of it?