Question for dasa

Originally posted by Dasa
Animals are not self realized or enlightened.

Perhaps this is one of the reasons why almost all humans, since as far back as we know about, see no moral hazard in eating them.

Originally posted by divegeester
I'm not sure what you mean?

I asked:

[b]"if (as you say) the killing of animals by each other is "all an illusion" and "nothing actually gets killed", why are you so upset by the "illusion" of humans killing to eat?"

You replied:

"Animals are not self realized or enlightened."

How does the animal's lack of self realisation impact whether or not the "illusion" of them being killed for food is offensive to you?[/b]

I said in another thread that animals do not suffer in the wild when eaten by another as we might think - because they do not have egos like humans ( egos cause the increase of pain) and also they become stunned at the time of the attack and do not experience the suffering a great deal - just like a monk who sets himself a light in protest and does not flinch.

Why does the monk not flinch?

He has risen above the pain by disassociating himself from his body or disassociating from ego.

Animals have the ability to do the same at the time of the attack. because they do not have egos like humans and its the ego that creates the increase of suffering.

Watch a pelican swallow a fish - and the fish immediately accepts its fate and stops struggling as soon as it is devoured.

Now humans can be subject to illusion and suffer and others are enlightened and can see the illusion of suffering for what it is and do not suffer because of that realization................but animals are not enlightened and cannot use the enlightened state to see through the illusion of suffering and therefore they suffer and experience fear in an artificial killing scenario such as a slaughter house- and not the natural wild situation.

So the answer to your question is that animals suffer a great deal when killed in a slaughter house environment because the smell the death and hear the cries of the others and they are mistreated and beaten into submission and they are not enlightened to see through this illusion (this is not the same as in the wild of one animal killing another as explained above.

Which ever way the cow is killed/slaughtered - it suffers unless it is euthanized away from the slaughter house.

Even if man was to euthanize all cows in all slaughter houses - it is barbaric and sinful to kill mother cow who is very dear to the devotees and the Lord.'

The cow is a sentient being and considered mankind's mother. (It is mankind's mother)

Man has no right to prematurely end the incarnation of that animal or the animal has to take birth again to continue its incarnation.

Animals following the law of the jungle and being food for another is the natural process for the demise of that incarnation.

If people want to eat flesh - they can kill dogs or pigs or rats or cockroaches.......and that's less bad karma. (never mother cow)

Only unenlightened ignorant persons kill mother cow.

The Vedas teach people how to become enlightened and civilized.

False religion does not.

Originally posted by FMF
Perhaps this is one of the reasons why almost all humans, since as far back as we know about, see no moral hazard in eating them.

That was a stab in the dark.

99.9999999999% of the human population of earth are not enlightened or self realized as well.....................so is there no moral hazard in eating humans.

Persons desirous of advancing on the spiritual path and achieving self realization and enlightment - must follow the instructions of the Vedic authority for engaging in proper civilized conduct to achieve the goal of love of God.

Killing animals will destroy all chances of advancing the consciousness to the transcendental platform and achieving love of God.

Killing animals will send the person back to this temporary world of suffering over and over and over again to live in ignorance of true knowledge of the purpose of their life.

Originally posted by Dasa
That was a stab in the dark.

99.9999999999% of the human population of earth are not enlightened or self realized as well.....................so is there no moral hazard in eating humans.

Persons desirous of advancing on the spiritual path and achieving self realization and enlightment - must follow the instructions of the Vedic authority for engaging in ...[text shortened]... ver and over and over again to live in ignorance of true knowledge of the purpose of their life.

If you want to promote vegetarianism, I suggest you stick to the political-economy thing about land use, calories, productivity, etc.

Originally posted by Dasa
That was a stab in the dark.

99.9999999999% of the human population of earth are not enlightened or self realized as well.....................so is there no moral hazard in eating humans.

Persons desirous of advancing on the spiritual path and achieving self realization and enlightment - must follow the instructions of the Vedic authority for engaging in ...[text shortened]... ver and over and over again to live in ignorance of true knowledge of the purpose of their life.

Is it not strange that there are approx. 7 billion people in the world and only seven who seems to understand what is going on

Originally posted by Dasa
That was a stab in the dark.

99.9999999999% of the human population of earth are not enlightened or self realized as well.....................so is there no moral hazard in eating humans.

So there are about 0.007 enlightened people on the planet?

And have been a total of about 0.1 enlightened people in the entirety of human history?

(assuming current population of 7 billion and total cumulative population of 105 billion)


You do like to just make stuff up.

Originally posted by googlefudge
(assuming current population of 7 billion and total cumulative population of 105 billion)

He believe humans have been around a very long time, so the cumulative total is much higher.

Originally posted by twhitehead
He believe humans have been around a very long time, so the cumulative total is much higher.

Well without his totally bogus nonsense estimate for how many humans there have ever
been I can't make an estimate...

However that still leaves us with his claim that there is a grand total of 0.7% of one person
currently alive today that is enlightened...

Do you think dasa will tell us which 0.7% of his body that is do you think?

Originally posted by Dasa
Watch a pelican swallow a fish - and the fish immediately accepts its fate and stops struggling as soon as it is devoured.

But animals do suffer greatly when they are killed by one another; in fact in the thread you refer to in your post and posted a youtube clip of a buffalo suffering greatly when being killed by lions for food, of which you commented "I don't need to watch the clip".

Your example of a pelican swallowing a fish which has "accepted it's fate" is both naive and incorrect and also negates your own claim that killing is an illusion - the fish clearly does not think it it's accepted fate is an illusion. Therefore my initial question to you remains unanswered you:

"why did your lord create animals which kill each other?"

Originally posted by FMF
If you want to promote vegetarianism, I suggest you stick to the political-economy thing about land use, calories, productivity, etc.

I have no desire to promote vegetarianism.

However I do wish to promote true religion - and the following of the principles of true religion which includes no meat eating among many other things.

A person can be a vegetarian their whole life and still return to this world of suffering if they do not seek spiritual enlightment.

Seek spiritual enlightment first - and all good things shall follow automatically.

Originally posted by Dasa
I have no desire to promote vegetarianism.

However I do wish to promote true religion - and the following of the principles of true religion which includes no meat eating among many other things.

You have said several times in the past that you will not share your purported deeper "insights" with people who are not vegetarians; that to stop eating meat is a prerequisite. So, logically, you ought to promote vegetarianism if you ever intend to have an audience here with whom to share what you say you have to share.

Originally posted by divegeester
But animals do suffer greatly when they are killed by one another; in fact in the thread you refer to in your post and posted a youtube clip of a buffalo suffering greatly when being killed by lions for food, of which you commented "I don't need to watch the clip".

Your example of a pelican swallowing a fish which has "accepted it's fate" is both naiv ...[text shortened]... ins unanswered you:

[b]"why did your lord create animals which kill each other?"[/b]

The question is answered..........I will say it again a little bit differently for your benefit.

Animals in the wild do not suffer as we do for they do not have egos.

Animals in slaughter houses suffer a great deal.(in that artificial cruel environment)

If there is one particular animal that is torn apart........and it seems overly brutal, then it was particularly brutal itself in a previous life.

This world is a place of suffering.

And the Lord has created a system of an eye for an eye. and a tooth for a tooth.....................because this world is not our true home and its all an illusion a dream ( and we don't belong here in this temporary horrible place)

Animal life is for those living entities who have incarnated in the animal body - because they have been very sinful in their previous a life and their karma is rewarding them.

The world functions as it does because it is the only way it can function in accordance with the law of cause and affect and karma.

If you kill...........then you will be killed.

If you are cruel to animals and then kill them....... you will be born as an animal and be torn apart and killed in cruel circumstances.

God allows animals to kill other animals because God does not interfere with the laws of this world....but the law of karma is just doing what the law of karma MUST do.....and give like for like.

The more brutal humans are in this age of Kali....then the more brutal is their death in the animal incarnation because its just rewarding like for like..........Its like when we see humans killing and torturing each other - that brutal action is rewarded in the same way when the living entity is incarnated in the animal life - and the animals tear each other apart. (like for like)

The Lord allows the material energy and the laws that govern it to exist un-hindered because that's the perfect system it is.

And the funny thing about all of this is - that it is all an illusion (the Lord knows this) and this is why it continues un-checked.

If you pull the legs and wings of a butterfly when young - then after your death you will be incarnated as an animal and be torn apart yourself. (Perfect Justice) in a perfect world by a perfect God.

But its all an illusion because the soul is indestructible and the body is just dust transformed (no one is being killed at all).....just changed and transformed according to the living entities particular karma.

Self realized and enlightened persons know this and do not suffer as the ignorant..........and they return home back to Godhead when the show is over.

Originally posted by Dasa
The question is answered..........I will say it again a little bit differently for your benefit.

Animals in the wild do not suffer as we do for they do not have egos.

Animals in slaughter houses suffer a great deal.(in that artificial cruel environment)

If there is one particular animal that is torn apart........and it seems overly brutal, then it was ot suffer as the ignorant..........and they return home back to Godhead when the show is over.

This is a good example of a circular argument dasa.

1) You claim that humans are bad when they kill animals to eat meat because killing animals is bad

2) I ask you why then did your "lord" create animals which kill each other to eat

3) You respond by claiming that animals do not suffer when they kill each other, only when humans kill them

4) I show you one video example of thousands where an animal is suffering greatly at the jaws of another

5) You then dismiss this as irrelevant as the suffering animal is actually a reincarnated human who killed animals in a previous life

This circular thinking is foisted onto this forum week after week by you, and with great indignation, but without a shred of even circumstantial evidence. Are you really surprised readers don't take you seriously?

Originally posted by Dasa
[b]I said in another thread that animals do not suffer in the wild when eaten by another

Don't Be Silly

Originally posted by Dasa
The question is answered..........I will say it again a little bit differently for your benefit.

Animals in the wild do not suffer as we do for they do not have egos.

Animals in slaughter houses suffer a great deal.(in that artificial cruel environment)

If there is one particular animal that is torn apart........and it seems overly brutal, then it was ...[text shortened]... ot suffer as the ignorant..........and they return home back to Godhead when the show is over.

would it be okay to eat meat if slaughter houses employed lions to do the killing?