Originally posted by Rajk999So do only the saved have 'eternal souls'?
Yes it is. Punishment is a state of paying for ones sins. The wages of sin is death. Those who are found worthy of death are destroyed without the hope of resurrection. Hence the term everlasting punishment. Everlasting torture is not taught in the bible. Pain and suffering is part of it Yes but that pain and suffering is not eternal.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkThere is death of this physical body and there is destruction of both body and soul.
So if death is the punishment, do the 'saved' not die?
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.(Matthew 10:28 KJV)
All of mankind, saved or not, can experience death of the body temporarily. The saved is not dead eternally.
17 Oct 16
Originally posted by Rajk999Why then is the fire described as everlasting and what is the purpose of the worm that doesn't die?
There is death of this physical body and there is destruction of both body and soul.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.(Matthew 10:28 KJV)
All of mankind, saved or not, can experience death of the body temporarily. The saved is not dead eternally.
17 Oct 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkMore to the point, morally speaking, what on earth could be the coherent purpose of such unimaginably demented violence and sadism? How could it be any deterrent or warning to people who sincerely believe it's just the unhinged and grotesque imaginings of superstitious writers millennia ago?
Why then is the fire described as everlasting and what is the purpose of the worm that doesn't die?
17 Oct 16
Originally posted by FMFIt certainly is a deterrent to those who believe it to be true. If Adolf Hitler, Eichmann, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot etc. believed in an eternal hell do think they would have done what they did?
More to the point, morally speaking, what on earth could be the coherent purpose of such unimaginably demented violence and sadism? How could it be any deterrent or warning to people who sincerely believe it's just the unhinged and grotesque imaginings of superstitious writers millennia ago?
17 Oct 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkWell you've said you believe people like them might get "undeserved mercy", so who knows? We are in the realms of complete bizarro morality, after all. What purpose does your god have in torturing non-believers for eternity?
It certainly is a deterrent to those who believe it to be true. If Adolf Hitler, Eichmann, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot etc. believed in an eternal hell do think they would have done what they did?
Originally posted by FMFGod doesn't send anyone to Hell. We send ourselves there. God has done everything He possibly can to keep us out of Hell and still leave us as people with free will and not just robots. That's the way He made us--after His image, after His likeness, with the power to say “yes” or the power to say “no,” the power to reject our own Creator, and of course to take the consequences.
Well you've said you believe people like them might get "undeserved mercy", so who knows? We are in the realms of complete bizarro morality, after all. What purpose does your god have in torturing non-believers for eternity?
In a sense, the concept of hell gives meaning to our lives. It tells us that the moral choices we make day by day have eternal significance, that our behavior has consequences lasting to eternity, that God Himself takes our choices seriously.
The doctrine of hell is not just some dusty theological holdover from the Middle Ages. It has significant social consequences. Without a conviction of ultimate justice, people's sense of moral obligation dissolves, and social bonds are broke. Of course, these considerations are not the most important reason to believe in hell. Jesus repeatedly issued warnings that if we turn away from God in this life, we will be alienated from God eternally.
17 Oct 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkAs you well know, I believe all this stuff you come out with - in your duckspeak kind of way - represents a complete lack of moral compass. You seem to have somehow convinced yourself that the opposite is true. In so far as it inhibits you from engaging in morally unsound behaviour, then I welcome that outcome, but it has absolutely no intellectual or spiritual traction as far as I am concerned ~ a fact unaffected by the number of times you describe your ideology "universal" or "perfect".
God doesn't send anyone to Hell. We send ourselves there. God has done everything He possibly can to keep us out of Hell and still leave us as people with free will and not just robots. That's the way He made us--after His image, after His likeness, with the power to say “yes” or the power to say “no,” the power to reject our own Creator, and of course t ...[text shortened]... ed warnings that if we turn away from God in this life, we will be alienated from God eternally.
17 Oct 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkI'll try again. What purpose does your god have in torturing non-believers for eternity?
It certainly is a deterrent to those who believe it to be true. If Adolf Hitler, Eichmann, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot etc. believed in an eternal hell do think they would have done what they did?
Originally posted by FMFMaybe believers are consumed by fire and forgotten and not tortured forever. Either way I don't think we know that for sure. I sure don't want to be on the receiving end either way.
I'll try again. What purpose does your god have in torturing [b]non-believers for eternity?[/b]
But I do know there is a way to avoid it and I prefer to focus on that.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkWow. You seem determined NOT to address the question. So I'll try again, with a tweak to accommodate your equivocal evasions: What do you think is your god's purpose in either torturing non-believers for eternity or for making believers [who tell themselves that they are not going to be tortured] think that the non-believers around them - maybe - will be tortured for eternity?
Maybe believers are consumed by fire and forgotten and not tortured forever. Either way I don't think we know that for sure. I sure don't want to be on the receiving end either way. But I do know there is a way to avoid it and I prefer to focus on that.
17 Oct 16
Originally posted by FMFThe Bible says that God prepared hell for the devil and his demonic cohorts (Matthew 25:41), that He is “…not wishing for any [person] to perish but for all to come to repentance.” (II Peter 3:9), and that He has done everything possible to save us from that terrible, terrible place. Yet in the end God will not violate or overrule the deliberate choice of those who consciously and willfully turn away from Him.
Wow. You seem determined NOT to address the question. So I'll try again, with a tweak to accommodate your equivocal evasions: What do you think is your god's purpose in either torturing non-believers for eternity or for making believers [who tell themselves that they are not going to be tortured] think that the non-believers around them - maybe - will be tortured for eternity?
17 Oct 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkPeople can't consciously choose to believe something that they simply do not find to be believable, as you well know (having heard personal testimony from people who are in that position). So this pronouncement is preposterous. It's like a kind of story point that a fiction writer hasn't properly thought through.
Yet in the end God will not violate or overrule the deliberate choice of those who consciously and willfully turn away from Him.
I am a non-believer. I am simply unable to somehow decide to believe much of the stuff you come up with and say on this forum about supernatural beings and the paranormal. Do you believe I am "demonic"?