Questioning online apologetics

Originally posted by jaywill
Interesting discussion. Could you, please, point out the contradiction that you notice?

Okay, here is what I think the reader considers a contradiction:

============================================
1 John 3:4 -9:
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 1:5-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are d ...[text shortened]... an apparent contradiction in these passages. Can you spot it and if so what do you make of it?
===================================


The one who abides in Christ does not sin.

At the same time John tells the Christians that if we say we have no sin we are self deceived.

Thus a contradiction ? A paradox perhaps. Not really a contradiction.


1.) The consciousness of sins grows ever keener and keener as one grows spiritually. The one who learns to abide in Christ may have days when he is aware of commiting no sins. That is wonderful and that is victorious.

However, because the spiritual life is a matter of growing into maturity through successive levels, the disciples becomes convicted of areas where he commits a sin one day. Previously he was not bothered in his conscious. But because of abiding in Christ the indwelling Spirit he grew. When he grew his conscience became ever more keener.

Now that he is aware that he has sinned. He confesses. He believes in the sin cleansing blood of Christ. Now in THAT area of his life he also abides in Christ. The sin is overcome and he enjoys another span of time in which he is aware of no particular sin commited by him.

That is abiding in Christ and not sinning IMO.

And that is how the conscience of the Christian grows to be ever more keen and sensative. When it becomes convicted anew of a previously unkonwn sin, then repentence and the cleansing of the blood restores fellowship.

This is a cycle that goes around and around. Repentence - cleansing - abiding - more light which means a keener conscience - which means deeper repentence - which means deeper cleansing - which means deeper abiding - which in turn leads to MORE LIGHT - hwich leads to confession of previously unknown sins - which leads to more cleansing - which results in deeper abiding.

This cycle is life long. So on this level John says that we deceive ourselves if we say that we do not have sin. But on the other hand the one abiding in Christ does not sin and cannot sin.

In short Abiding in Christ grows deeper and deeper. In more and more areas the disciples learns to abide in the indwelling nonsinning righteous Spirit of Christ as his life.

Paradox perhaps. Not really a contradiction.

Originally posted by jaywill
Okay, here is what I think the reader considers a contradiction:

[b]============================================
1 John 3:4 -9:
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: ...[text shortened]... inning righteous Spirit of Christ as his life.

Paradox perhaps. Not really a contradiction.

I am inclined to agree .....I did say "apparent" contradiction.

I doubt ThinkofOne will be able to appreciate your argument though. His mind is not able to hold two thoughts like this together. He will only see a contradiction , he only sees black and white. Rather than being an intelligent way of reasoning through a complex , subtle idea , for him , your words will no doubt appear to be a "rationalization".

Originally posted by jaywill
Okay, here is what I think the reader considers a contradiction:

[b]============================================
1 John 3:4 -9:
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: ...[text shortened]... inning righteous Spirit of Christ as his life.

Paradox perhaps. Not really a contradiction.

[/b]If you place 1 John 1:8-10 in context, there is no contradiction or even "paradox".

This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

First John establishes that God is Light and that in Him there is NO darkness. Then John establishes a stipulation that IF we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the light, only then does Jesus cleanse us from all sin. Then John elaborates on this sin that Jesus cleanses in 8-10. In 8-10 John is speaking of the sin committed PRIOR to walking in the Light. The sin that is cleansed only IF we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the light.

This is very consistent with 1 John 3:4-10
Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If you place 1 John 1:8-10 in context, there is no contradiction or even "paradox".

This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in ...[text shortened]... does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.[/b]

Then John establishes a stipulation that IF we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the light, only then does Jesus cleanse us from all sin. ---ToOne-------------

But (in your view) in order to walk in the light we must be free of sin , if any sin is in us then we cannot be in the light. Yes?

Therefore it follows that (in your view) we are able to be free/ cleansed of sin by our own efforts (ie we don't need the blood of Christ). Yes?

It logically follows then that either........

a) we must be able to be cleansed/free of sin BEFORE Jesus cleanses us thereby making Jesus's sacrifice redundant.

or

b) it must be possible to walk in the light without being totally cleansed of sin or being 100% perfected?


Neither a) or b) are logical . coherent or consistent with your position.

Me thinks you may be reading too much into the "if" word. "If" like the word "can" has multiple meanings in different contexts.

It's also clear that Simon Peter sinned and was a sinner after he was baptised and became a follower of Jesus. Was his sin (and betrayal) unforgiven and not able to be cleansed by Jesus?

A clear fly in your ointment (remember it only takes one).

(BTW- It would be nice if you actually defined what sin is in your book so that some of this could be grounded in reality - could you define "sin" before I lose the will to live or die of boredom asking ?)

Originally posted by knightmeister
Then John establishes a stipulation that IF we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the light, only then does Jesus cleanse us from all sin. ---ToOne-------------

But (in your view) in order to walk in the light we must be free of sin , if any sin is in us then we cannot be in the light. Yes?

Therefore it follows that (in your view) we are ab ...[text shortened]... y - could you define "sin" before I lose the will to live or die of boredom asking ?)

Try when you are righteous, you are walking in light. When you sin, you are walking in darkness.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Try when you are righteous, you are walking in light. When you sin, you are walking in darkness.

But if you have to walk in the light perfectly before Jesus will cleanse you from sin then who needs Jesus? Surely what you are saying implies that we have to walk in the light BEFORE Jesus will cleanse us.

This is like saying that you will only get a car wash on condition that your car is spotless!

dUH???

(bTW- You still haven't defined what for you consitutes a "sin" NOR have you addressed the logical inconsistency in your position)

Originally posted by knightmeister
But if you have to walk in the light perfectly before Jesus will cleanse you from sin then who needs Jesus? Surely what you are saying implies that we have to walk in the light BEFORE Jesus will cleanse us.

This is like saying that you will only get a car wash on condition that your car is spotless!

dUH???

(bTW- You still haven't defined wh ...[text shortened]... for you consitutes a "sin" NOR have you addressed the logical inconsistency in your position)

What John said in 1 John 1:5-10 is consistent with what he said in 1 John 3:4-10. You just don't want it to be true and so you are arguing just to argue.

What IS contrary to what John says in those passages is your belief system. Read the following. It is completely contrary to your beliefs. If you want to work on reconciling anything, it should be to bring your beliefs in line with these statements. You can continue to bury your head in the sand or deal with it. I hope that some day you open your heart to truth. It'd be a beautiful thing.

God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil;

No one who is born of God practices sin...and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.


These words are also consistent with the words of Jesus
"...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever."

"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me...He that loveth me not keepeth not my words"

"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What John said in 1 John 1:5-10 is consistent with what he said in 1 John 3:4-10. You just don't want it to be true and so you are arguing just to argue.

What IS contrary to what John says in those passages is your belief system. Read the following. It is completely contrary to your beliefs. If you want to work on reconciling anything, it should be t ...[text shortened]... s of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."[/b]

But if you have to walk in the light perfectly before Jesus will cleanse you from sin then who needs Jesus? Surely what you are saying implies that we have to walk in the light BEFORE Jesus will cleanse us.

This is like saying that you will only get a car wash on condition that your car is spotless!


(Please just answer the question)

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What John said in 1 John 1:5-10 is consistent with what he said in 1 John 3:4-10. You just don't want it to be true and so you are arguing just to argue.

What IS contrary to what John says in those passages is your belief system. Read the following. It is completely contrary to your beliefs. If you want to work on reconciling anything, it should be t ...[text shortened]... s of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."[/b]

I shall repeat the below for you. Can you reconcile these?



But (in your view) in order to walk in the light we must be free of sin , if any sin is in us then we cannot be in the light. Yes?

Therefore it follows that (in your view) we are able to be free/ cleansed of sin by our own efforts (ie we don't need the blood of Christ). Yes?

It logically follows then that either........

a) we must be able to be cleansed/free of sin BEFORE Jesus cleanses us thereby making Jesus's sacrifice redundant.

or

b) it must be possible to walk in the light without being totally cleansed of sin or being 100% perfected?


Neither a) or b) are logical . coherent or consistent with your position.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What John said in 1 John 1:5-10 is consistent with what he said in 1 John 3:4-10. You just don't want it to be true and so you are arguing just to argue.

What IS contrary to what John says in those passages is your belief system. Read the following. It is completely contrary to your beliefs. If you want to work on reconciling anything, it should be t s of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."[/b]

"What IS contrary to what John says in those passages is your belief system. Read the following. It is completely contrary to your beliefs. If you want to work on reconciling anything, it should be to bring your beliefs in line with these statements. You can continue to bury your head in the sand or deal with it. I hope that some day you open your heart to truth. It'd be a beautiful thing." ------------------------------------------ToONE-----------------------------------

You don't understand. My position does not rely upon being entirely watertight. I have already accepted that the teachings in NT are messy and sometimes seem contradictory. In some parts it says one thing and then in another it seems to cut right across the previous points.

Many of John's words are seemingly floored by a whole load of other verses regarding how Jesus is to be our high priest in heaven advocating for us when we fail/sin. This is a very different idea from what John is saying here because it implies an on going life of confession and repentance in those who are saved.

You see it's you that has the catagorical position , not me. Me? I accept that things don't always add up. The Bible is a messy business and understanding it messier still. I can deal with this because I have something in my life that's not in a book but is alive. I don't have to believe that it all fits together neatly like some perfect jigsaw and my position does not rest on that foundation. Life is not neat and tidy and my beliefs are not rigid and catagorical like yours.

You however have a very rigid position that relies upon things adding up perfectly and logically with no exceptions and no flies in the ointment. This is why ANY logical inconsistency is a big problem for you. That's why Simon Peter and the thief on the cross are a fly in the ointment. Ephin and others are coming up with other ideas as well. There are so many problems. Will you avoid them all?

This is why you simply have to sidestep many of the issues I and others present and why you have tried to turn around my last post on to me. You have no way of computing it. You cannot go there. You know unconsciously that flies in the ointment are a very real threat because your belief system has no way of rolling with the punches.

The issue of having a totally watertight position that has no problems attached to it is one that YOU need to address NOT me because I have already accepted it. It's you that has the catagorical , all or nothing position , not me. It's your fly in the ointment not mine.

The one thing I have never heard you say as yet is the phrase "Yes , I will admit , that is a bit of a problem for me , I don't know how that fits to be honest"

It's a phrase you seem as incapable of uttering as you are at answering straight questions.

Originally posted by knightmeister
But if you have to walk in the light perfectly before Jesus will cleanse you from sin then who needs Jesus? Surely what you are saying implies that we have to walk in the light BEFORE Jesus will cleanse us.

This is like saying that you will only get a car wash on condition that your car is spotless!


(Please just answer the question)

Try reading my posts. The answer is there.

Why the on-going game of asking me questions that I've already answered?

Is it too much for you to participate in an honest discussion?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I shall repeat the below for you. Can you reconcile these?



But (in your view) in order to walk in the light we must be free of sin , if any sin is in us then we cannot be in the light. Yes?

Therefore it follows that (in your view) we are able to be free/ cleansed of sin by our own efforts (ie we don't need the blood of Christ). Yes?

It ...[text shortened]... 00% perfected?


Neither a) or b) are logical . coherent or consistent with your position.

"But (in your view) in order to walk in the light we must be free of sin , if any sin is in us then we cannot be in the light.

This premise is incorrect as I pointed out earlier.

Originally posted by knightmeister
"What IS contrary to what John says in those passages is your belief system. Read the following. It is completely contrary to your beliefs. If you want to work on reconciling anything, it should be to bring your beliefs in line with these statements. You can continue to bury your head in the sand or deal with it. I hope that some day you open your hear se you seem as incapable of uttering as you are at answering straight questions.

I have already accepted that the teachings in NT are messy and sometimes seem contradictory. In some parts it says one thing and then in another it seems to cut right across the previous points.

Try following the teachings of Jesus instead. On the whole, you'll find them to sound and remarkably coherent. Why hang on to a "messy and contradictory" belief system?

From what I gather, it is Paul that has lead Christianity down a blind alley.

You can continue to follow the teachings of Paul or you can follow the teachings of Jesus. I suggest the latter.

I used to wonder why it seems Christians, on the whole, are no more moral than the general public. I wonder no more.

It really is a shame. Jesus spoke the truth. The truth will make you free.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]I have already accepted that the teachings in NT are messy and sometimes seem contradictory. In some parts it says one thing and then in another it seems to cut right across the previous points.

Try following the teachings of Jesus instead. On the whole, you'll find them to sound and remarkably coherent. Why hang on to a "messy and contradictory ...[text shortened]... wonder no more.

It really is a shame. Jesus spoke the truth. The truth will make you free.[/b]

Yes , yes , this is all very well , but you side stepped the question didn't you........



(In your view) in order to walk in the light we must be free of sin , if any sin is in us then we cannot be in the light. Yes?

Therefore it follows that (in your view) we are able to be free/ cleansed of sin by our own efforts (ie we don't need the blood of Christ). Yes?

It logically follows then that either........

a) we must be able to be cleansed/free of sin BEFORE Jesus cleanses us thereby making Jesus's sacrifice redundant.

or

b) it must be possible to walk in the light without being totally cleansed of sin or being 100% perfected?


Neither a) or b) are logical . coherent or consistent with your position.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"But (in your view) in order to walk in the light we must be free of sin , if any sin is in us then we cannot be in the light.

This premise is incorrect as I pointed out earlier.[/b]

So you think we can walk in the light but NOT be free or cleansed of sin??

This contradicts what you have said many times about your view of sin.

This is what you actually said.....

"Then John establishes a stipulation that IF we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the light, only then does Jesus cleanse us from all sin". ---ToOne-------------

It therefore follows that we are able to walk in the light without being 100% cleansed from sin , or having overcome sin 100% .

It's basic logic. You have always accused me of being incapable of logic , but now it's your turn to show how capable YOU are.

Can you get out of it without sidestepping?