Originally posted by ahosyney I will try to give an Idea.(It might be wrong, I will be happy if you can correct me) From what I have seen so far athiest like you using their mind know that our existance is related to some greater force. Some call it nature, and some call it the universe, and religous people call it GOD. GOD, or Allah ,is the name he give to himself.
You are wrong. Some atheists (like me) do not think that our existence is related to 'some greater force'.
Originally posted by Palynka What do you mean by 'bigger'?
"Bigger", "greater", "more powerful", broadly speaking. The idea being that people are capable of doing precisely nothing, not even survive, unless they harness some natural force (eg. electricity). In the case of food, very big (in terms of spatial extension 🙄 ) systems are needed to enable people to survive.
Anyone ambitious to "live in harmony with nature" (a phrase I use with caution) would need to see themselves as part of a larger whole rather than some sort of independent agent.
Originally posted by Bosse de Nage "Bigger", "greater", "more powerful", broadly speaking. The idea being that people are capable of doing precisely nothing, not even survive, unless they harness some natural force (eg. electricity). In the case of food, very big (in terms of spatial extension 🙄 ) systems are needed to enable people to survive.
Anyone ambitious to "live in harmon to see themselves as part of a larger whole rather than some sort of independent agent.
Yes, but since we are natural, and therefore part of nature, it makes no sense to make that distinction.
Besides, being alive (and therefore capable of dying) is something to be valued, is it not?
It seems that you downplay its importance when you focus on the need to survive as a sign of 'inferiority' (as opposed to bigger, greater, etc.). I see it as exactly the opposite.
Originally posted by Palynka Yes, but since we are natural, and therefore part of nature, it makes no sense to make that distinction.
You're talking like a Taoist. That's ok. I agree with you. The perennial wisdom informs us that man is a microcosm. At the same time, it's undeniable that we are smaller than mountains, let alone suns. I hope you get my point, it's not a big deal and is not meant to assign people some inferior status.
Originally posted by Bosse de Nage You're talking like a Taoist. That's ok. I agree with you. The perennial wisdom informs us that man is a microcosm. At the same time, it's undeniable that we are smaller than mountains, let alone suns. I hope you get my point, it's not a big deal and is not meant to assign people some inferior status.
I didn't think you were talking about physical size. Yes, we're smaller than mountains and suns, but that is pretty meaningless.
Why should size matter if we're talking about spirituality? 😉
Interestingly enough, we need land because without it we'll revert to it.
Originally posted by Palynka I didn't think you were talking about physical size. Yes, we're smaller than mountains and suns, but that is pretty meaningless.
Any discussion about spirituality founded on binary opposites (big/small etc) is going to be absurd. Of course, that's what your Lao Tzus, Blakes and what have you are all getting at.
Originally posted by Bosse de Nage Nature--the sum of natural forces that form and sustain you--is bigger than you, isn't it?
His statement implied the existence of a specific 'force' which was 'greater' than me. He did not define what he meant by 'force' or by 'greater' but implied that a being called God could fulfill both.
I am not entirely clear on what you define as 'the sum of natural forces'.
Clearly the matter and energy contained in the universe is bigger than that contained in a part (me). Does the universe 'sustain' me? That depends on what you mean by sustain. I am a part of the universe and clearly could not exist independently.
When you say Nature do you mean reality as a whole or are you talking about the environment on earth in particular?
Originally posted by Bosse de Nage Nature--the sum of natural forces that form and sustain you--is bigger than you, isn't it?
Nature: Everything that exists, I guess, from galaxies to sub-atomic particles. Human society is a sub-set of nature...
Originally posted by ahosney I will try to give an Idea.(It might be wrong, I will be happy if you can correct me) From what ...[text shortened]... ll it the universe, and religous people call it GOD. GOD, or Allah ,is the name he give to himself.
We all agree, whether atheist or theist that the universe exists and that it is physically bigger than us. ahosneys statement implies more than that. The universe could hardly be described as 'a force'.
How he can claim however that the universe and God are equivalent I don't know as most theist I know claim that God is external to the universe (at least in part).
Originally posted by twhitehead We all agree, whether atheist or theist that the universe exists and that it is physically bigger than us. ahosneys statement implies more than that. The universe could hardly be described as 'a force'.
How he can claim however that the universe and God are equivalent I don't know as most theist I know claim that God is external to the universe (at least in part).
That is my point:
My statement doesn't imply anything more than you said. Our existance is related to something that we don't have power over it. If it is not, why cann't you stop you heart beats for example. You will say the nature requires that hear beats keep going, so I can stay alife, so my heart is designed to work forever so I cann't stop it.
So the nature force your life to a specific behaviour. Do not you call this a force over you? The need of food, air, sex, and almost every aspect of you life, follow the same rule. You call nature, or anything else. What the difference between you and me? Names.
28 Nov '06 08:07
Qur'an
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