Qur'an

Originally posted by ahosyney


If you say that GOD existance is impossible then you have a mental problem and so, GOD will not punish you.

lol

Originally posted by ahosyney
If you say that GOD existance is impossible then you have a mental problem and so, GOD will not punish you.[/b]

Well there you have it. A large portion of the members on these forums are going staiaght to heaven when they die with their mental problems and all.😲

Originally posted by whodey
Well there you have it. A large portion of the members on these forums are going staiaght to heaven when they die with their mental problems and all.😲

🙂 I'm not GOD

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]How could this be fact? It might be fact only after you try, not before.

It is a fact because I know my own mindset...Given that my calculator is without significant defects I do not need to key 2+2 into it just to be sure that it would give an answer of 4...I know this to be true without even trying.

Additionally...do you hold to the idea that al ...[text shortened]... h people for thinking with their heads as opposed to thinking with their hearts? (as it were)[/b]

I have a question for you:

Why are you worried if you belive there is no GOD?

Originally posted by ahosyney
I have a question for you:

Why are you worried if you belive there is no GOD?

I don't think he's worried, to be honest. I think he's making a statement
about the sanity of your God.

Originally posted by ahosyney
If you say that GOD existance is impossible then you have a mental problem and so, GOD will not punish you.

Lucky me. I have a mental problem and will not be punished!

However you still haven't explained why the verse clearly states that God has blindfolded some people.

Originally posted by stocken
This verse in chapter 2 has me pussled. I am an atheist. According to
this verse, Allah has blinded me from the one true faith, and as a result
he will punish me.

I don't understand how you've come to this conclusion. You seem to have set yourself up as your own judge or something.

Don't forget you're a Zarathustran, you'll get into the after-party 🙂

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I don't understand how you've come to this conclusion. You seem to have set yourself up as your own judge or something.

Don't forget you're a Zarathustran, you'll get into the after-party 🙂

Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and
there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for
them.

I read this as not only did Allah block me from seeing by putting a seal
on my heart and cover my eyes, but he's also going to punish me for it.
Or us. All of us who can't see Allah because of the seal he put on our
hearts. 😕

Of course, aho showed me what it really means. If I can see Allah and
still choose to ignore him I'll be punished, otherwise I'm just mental and
God doesn't mistreat those of us he couldn't create fully in his image.
Now, there's a God I like. Manly and strong, yet not afraid to admit
his shortcomings and mistakes. Allah is great!

I suppose I should be lucky so far that I haven't seen him. Phew!

As for Zarathustrianism, I sort of turned my back on it when I realised
they were into this whole animal sacrificial thing.* I couldn't possibly
adhere to a religion that perform rites with elements of sacrificing life.
That's sickening to me. God or no God. Great philosophy or no
Philosophy.

Well, Zarathustra still fascinates me to some degree with this whole
"Good thought, good deed" thing, and the fact that it's apparently now
been established to be one of the two oldest surviving religions in the
world. Just a year ago, wikipedia had no idea exactly how old it was. 😕

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism_and_Hinduism

(For the record, I'm still reading the Qur'an with an open mind, but the
idea was that I should try and find flaws, and adherents of Islam should
try to make me see that the Qur'an has no flaws. So, I may appear
quite partial to a non-Islamic point of view. Which of course I am. But
that's besides the point. Anyway, read on. Nothing to see here.)

* Though I still drive my Mazda 323F -91. 🙂

Originally posted by ahosyney
That is not what is meant here. It means when a man see the truth and refuse to accept it then GOD punish him by sealing upon his heart.

I know you have put me in the insane category, which might explain it, but I cant seem to see how someone can see the truth and refuse to accept it. Surely a refusal to accept implies that he has not actually seen it.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I know you have put me in the insane category, which might explain it, but I cant seem to see how someone can see the truth and refuse to accept it. Surely a refusal to accept implies that he has not actually seen it.

It's not about whether or not such people exist. He's making the statement
that if you can see the truth Allah speaks of and denies it (no matter
how implausible it would be to reject something like this if you can see it)
you will be punished.

Originally posted by ahosyney
I tried hard to understand you but I failed.

2+2 = 4 is a fact no doute about it. No body say it might be 5 or 3.

But GOD doesn't exist , is not a fact.

If you say that GOD existance is impossible then you have a mental problem and so, GOD will not punish you.

Abhosney, I originally asked the question:
hmm... so your god grants humans the ability to reason. The consequence of this being that in some cases a person will deduce that a *book of truth* that can only be substantiated through having faith has no more validity than any other book of truth substantiated by the same means. Your god then punishes them for actually coming to this conclusion and choosing *no book of truth* when the tools he gave to us work as catalysts toward this end???

You replied with 3 choices

1- You read the book, find the truth in it and accept it. So you don't have to care about GOD punishment.

2- You read the book find the truth but you refuse to accept. It is your choise. So you have to accept the consequences.

3- You read the book, find nothing interesting, and continue to belive that there is no GOD. So why worry about GOD punishment

Since I'm an atheist, 1 & 2 do not apply as it is certainly correct that I would not see any truth in a book that I regard as fiction...That there are numerous *mutually exclusive* books of truth, in addition to the fact that no physical evidence has been brought to bear that would vindicate anyone of them, as well as the fact that many of such events that are meant to have happened are not re-creatable or testible in our physical world is my justification for asserting that me (with my own particular mindset) not finding truth in these books is a fact.

I therefore responded to 3 by stating that if I was wrong, then whether I worried about it or not would he still punish me for not seeing this truth

The important part of your reply was
1- They are true and you have a mental problem didn't allow you to get this truth. In this case you will not be punished for your mental problems.

2- They are not true. And GOD is not there.

This answer suggests that ALL people who have read your holy book AND can not see the truth must be mental OR there is not a god

1 can be eliminated by finding just one exception to this rule (ie: one person of sound mind who has read the Qu-ran and finds it less truthful than being an atheist)

Therefore by your answer only 2 is correct...This however, contradicts your faith, and thus either you have faith in a god that does not exist or you gave an incorrect answer earlier (though this would bring into question the extent to which you yourself can see this ahem... *truth* if you are incorrectly interpreting the words of the Qu-ran such that this wrong answer was given)...To give you the benefit of the doubt I'll ask again:

your god grants humans the ability to reason. The consequence of this being that in some cases a person will deduce that a *book of truth* that can only be substantiated through having faith has no more validity than any other book of truth substantiated by the same means. Your god then punishes them for actually coming to this conclusion and choosing *no book of truth* when the tools he gave to us work as catalysts toward this end???

Would your god would still condemn me to the fires of hell for reaching a simple but logical conclusion about your *book of truth* despite the fact I do not worry about it?

Originally posted by stocken
I don't think he's worried, to be honest. I think he's making a statement
about the sanity of your God.

would I do such a thing!!?😲








😉

Originally posted by Agerg
Abhosney, I originally asked the question:
hmm... so your god grants humans the ability to reason. The consequence of this being that in some cases a person will deduce that a *book of truth* that can only be substantiated through having faith has no more validity than any other book of truth substantiated by the same means. Your god then punishes them for logical conclusion about your *book of truth* despite the fact I do not worry about it?

Since I'm an atheist, 1 & 2 do not apply as it is certainly correct that I would not see any truth in a book that I regard as fiction...That there are numerous *mutually exclusive* books of truth, in addition to the fact that no physical evidence has been brought to bear that would vindicate anyone of them, as well as the fact that many of such events that are meant to have happened are not re-creatable or testible in our physical world is my justification for asserting that me (with my own particular mindset) not finding truth in these books is a fact.

1- If this is what you think why are we talking?
2- You argument is just assumption with no prove. It cann't be fact.

Give a sources that prove your point for Quran, other wise it doesn't make sense. And it is not a fact that we can use it to make any conclusions.


Any way I will avoide this point for now and I will assume that you really want to know:

From your argument non of the three choises apply to you. Simply because all the three start by reading the book(I think a more appropriate expression will give a general meaning is to Know the message). But as you don't know anything about the message of Islam or Quran (As it appear to me) then non of them apply to you.

You refuse to know the message from the begining. IAllah will punish you because you know that there is a possiblity to find the truth and you refused it.

Is GOD existance impossible for you? Show me a logical explaination for that.

Would your god would still condemn me to the fires of hell for reaching a simple but logical conclusion about your *book of truth* despite the fact I do not worry about it?

How can you make a logical conclusion about something you don't know?

Can you show me your simple, logical conclusion?

That is not my complete my answer: I just want to show you how you think.

Originally posted by Agerg
Abhosney, I originally asked the question:
hmm... so your god grants humans the ability to reason. The consequence of this being that in some cases a person will deduce that a *book of truth* that can only be substantiated through having faith has no more validity than any other book of truth substantiated by the same means. Your god then punishes them for ...[text shortened]... logical conclusion about your *book of truth* despite the fact I do not worry about it?

To complete my answer:

When I studied Islamic Faith in school and university, we learned to have a logical evidence for every part of our faith beside using Quran. We always started by the logical explaination first. This includes the existance of GOD himself. We do so because Quran ask us to use our minds. Quran ask both belivers and no belivers to use their minds every where in the Quran. So muslims don't have a blind faith, they don't accept anything without a prove.

I will try to give an Idea.(It might be wrong, I will be happy if you can correct me) From what I have seen so far athiest like you using their mind know that our existance is related to some greater force. Some call it nature, and some call it the universe, and religous people call it GOD. GOD, or Allah ,is the name he give to himself.

But I see the problem is naming problem. The only problem with Athiest don't belive that this force could have some intellegece, and it may ask them for something. But I see they all share the same Idea that there is something that result in our existance.

So some belive that this thing has no intellegance, and they have logical explaination.

Also some belive that this thing might have intellegance too. And that has logical explaination too.

But both agree that it is there.

What breaks this ambiguity is that this thing tell you about himself.

In this case we will know it? And that the message we talk about.

I assume that Islam is the message that sent to me from this being telling me about himself.

So:

1- Rejecting the message just because you belive that this thing is not intellegent is not logic. It exactly "GOD doesn't exist so Quran is not true".

"The logic say if the Quran is not true then GOD doesn't exist"
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2- Lets go back to our options but I will make it general now:

We have two main options now:

A- You know about the message. I mean you know there are some people claim that they got a message from that Being: Here we have two expected reactions from you:


I- You go to know the message: And here come my three options that I said before:

1- You go to know the message. make sense to you. The ambiguity is gone. You know that being and what he wants from you. And now no punishment.

2- You go to know the message. make sense to you. But for some reason you refused to do what this being want from you. Then you accept the consequences.

3- You go to know the message. doesn't make sense to you. And so you are sure that this being is not intellegent one. Don't worry!!!


II- You don't seek to know the message:

Here you might do that because you trust your logic and don't want to accept the other option. That is exactly the same experiance the religion people face when you show them that their faith might be wrong. They may refuse to hear you because they are afriad to appear like being fooled , or they are so sure of their faith. Same apply to this case. You will not try to hear the message because either you are afriad that you might be wrong or, you trust you faith so much. But in both cases you didn't give yourself the chance to know wheather the message is true or false. If it is true, then you will be punished becaue you don't have an execuse.
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B- You don't know about the message. No one told you and you have no clue to know

In this case there is no problem to you. Belive what ever you belive. You have no problem.

But today no one can claim that. It is an open world. Also it is the responsibility of the people who know the message to give it to every one.

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If you take Islam as the message. You know now where you are?

Did I answer your question?

Originally posted by ahosyney
You refuse to know the message from the beginning. Allah will punish you because you know that there is a possibility to find the truth and you refused it.

I don't think that anyone who really thinks that there is a genuine possibility that the truth can be found in the Qu'ran will refuse to read it. Many of us do not read it because we do not think there is a possibility that the truth can be found in it or we think that the possibility is infinitesimally small.