Re-incarnation

Originally posted by vishvahetu
The atheists come to the spirituality forum, not to enquire, but to talk all their nonsense.

I disagree, most atheists talk very good sense; they are mostly rational and logical (doesn't mean they are right though).

It is you who talks complete nonsense, whilst putting down other beliefs with no common frame of reference or rational to your thinking. You are not even worth debating with, at least the JWs come off the ropes with some solid argument based on a point of reference.

This lame talk of spirits on other planets waiting to be reincarnated back to earth, vegetables with souls and a claimed form of spirituality that cannot be explained in words, it all makes me want to chuck my lunch to honest, your only saving grace is you are not charging folk for it.

The concept of reincarnation and karma is also very insulting to people who are born in very unfortunate circumstances.

Originally posted by lausey
The concept of reincarnation and karma is also very insulting to people who are born in very unfortunate circumstances.

I dont think so. Proper understanding of the classical notions of bhuddist and hindu karma and reincarnation suggest that to be born in a human form is extremely lucky/advanced.
Anyway it is up to the individual of how they react to their circumstances,(be they fortunate or unfortunate). Life can end at any moment and the implication of this universal inevibilaty is that one must be prepared at all times for ones death, which is to be faced with no regrets, hopefully having done everything that you were supposed to do during this life.

Have you noticed that there are many poor countries in the world that have happier people than in more richer countries? Unless you are talking about being born into some horrible disease, I would say that being born in say India is more unfortunate than being born in Australia. (Those Indians look pretty happy on tv, but I could have it all wrong.) Now I'm not sure that is VERY unfortunate,ie.being born in a place like India as opposed to a place like Australia. What did you have in mind?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I dont think so. Proper understanding of the classical notions of bhuddist and hindu karma and reincarnation suggest that to be born in a human form is extremely lucky/advanced.
Anyway it is up to the individual of how they react to their circumstances,(be they fortunate or unfortunate). Life can end at any moment and the implication of this universal ing born in a place like India as opposed to a place like Australia. What did you have in mind?

What I had in mind is that it is insulting when people say they deserve it from a wrong doing in a previous life. Certainly people can live life to the full, but to suggest that anyone is inadequate and suffering because they have caused suffering to others previously would be highly offensive.

EDIT: Although I admit, I didn't make this clear in my previous post.

Originally posted by lausey
What I had in mind is that it is insulting when people say they deserve it from a wrong doing in a previous life. Certainly people can live life to the full, but to suggest that anyone is inadequate and suffering because they have caused suffering to others previously would be highly offensive.

EDIT: Although I admit, I didn't make this clear in my previous post.

I see your point, thnx🙂

Originally posted by lausey
What I had in mind is that it is insulting when people say they deserve it from a wrong doing in a previous life. Certainly people can live life to the full, but to suggest that anyone is inadequate and suffering because they have caused suffering to others previously would be highly offensive.

EDIT: Although I admit, I didn't make this clear in my previous post.

What in your mind makes it inherently "offensive"?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What in your mind makes it inherently "offensive"?

Ok, dug myself into a hole here. I wouldn't say it is inherently offensive, but subjectively so, and a valid point you have raised. 🙂

For example, someone who was born who cannot walk for the rest of his/her life. This person can be very happy, and does not make an issue of it. Concentrating on what he/she can do, rather than can't. Some one comes along, say this person has "bad karma" and deserves it from something they had done in a previous life.

This person is likely to be offended (correction from previously, where I implied it was inherent. 😉 ), because it suggests that he/she is a "lesser" person, and suggesting that this person should suffer for something they aren't even aware of or remember.

My father believes this, and I used to. Thinking that it being offensive does not make it less true. Although I do realise now it isn't true, and can understand why people will be offended by it.

Originally posted by lausey
Ok, dug myself into a hole here. I wouldn't say it is inherently offensive, but subjectively so, and a valid point you have raised. 🙂

For example, someone who was born who cannot walk for the rest of his/her life. This person can be very happy, and does not make an issue of it. Concentrating on what he/she can do, rather than can't. Some one comes along, gh I do realise now it isn't true, and can understand why people will be offended by it.

I guess I see the concepts karma and re-incarnation as ways of using the idea of future consequences to instill personal responsibility rather than as a way of explaining the past. The idea of taking pride or feeling shame for past lives that one has no control or even knowledge seems absurd.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I guess I see the concepts karma and re-incarnation as ways of using the idea of future consequences to instill personal responsibility rather than as a way of explaining the past. The idea of taking pride or feeling shame for past lives that one has no control or even knowledge seems absurd.

Although the concept of karma and reincarnation being used to cause people to behave themselves sounds appealing, it doesn't make it exist.

Even though the concept is appealing, suggesting that what you do now affects your future doesn't just work one way. If future lives are affected, then that will mean that where you are now is because of what you have done before. This is what causes people to say you have "bad karma" and implying you deserve what you have now (even though you can change it and make your future life better, but that is besides the point). I agree that this does make it absurd.

Originally posted by lausey
Although the concept of karma and reincarnation being used to cause people to behave themselves sounds appealing, it doesn't make it exist.

Even though the concept is appealing, suggesting that what you do now affects your future doesn't just work one way. If future lives are affected, then that will mean that where you are now is because of what you have ...[text shortened]... r future life better, but that is besides the point). I agree that this does make it absurd.

Don't be in a hurry to throw it all out. There's a concept of karma where thoughts and actions are imprinted on the mind much as wagon wheels create grooves in a dirt road. The more the thoughts and actions are repeated, the deeper the grooves. The deeper the grooves, the more likely the same thoughts and actions will be repeated. The combination of imprints form ones character and influence future thoughts and actions and can be extremely difficult to change if deeply ingrained. Cause and effect. Sometimes I wonder if this was the initial concept of karma. I also wonder if reincarnation may have been an extrapolation of that concept in an attempt to explain why individuals seem to be "born" with different temperaments and likes and dislikes.

Perhaps the idea of cause and effect were also extrapolated to some sort of "cosmic force" that returns in kind what individuals have given out. Combining this concept with reincarnation may have been an attempt to explain why individuals seem to be "born" into lesser or better situations than others and why individuals often do not seem to get their "just desserts" within their lifetime.

Personally, I'm not that high on the validity of the concept of reincarnation or that of a "cosmic force", but I do believe in what I surmise to be the "initial concept of karma".

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I guess I see the concepts karma and re-incarnation as ways of using the idea of future consequences to instill personal responsibility rather than as a way of explaining the past. The idea of taking pride or feeling shame for past lives that one has no control or even knowledge seems absurd.

I agree with you but not everyone would. Some DO blame their karma for their problems.

May i add something here,

In this illusionary world of suffering, it is desighned that each person creates their seperate reality. How do they do it?

A person creates their reality by their words, thoughts and actions.

Two brothers from the same family, live two seperate lives, one is wealthy and succesfull, and the other is broke and a drug abuser.

The brother who is sucessfull, entertained thoughts of wealth, financial planning, business ideas, sought ideas about creating wealth and so on.

The second brother, entertained thoughts of, lets party every night, where is drugs to party with, where is people to party with, how can i sell drugs to make some money, and so on.

Each person created their own reality, and because they did this, then any consequences of their creation will be rewarded to them (negative or positive)

This reward of the consequences is what the Vedas call Karma.

In the Bible it also states that: as you sow, so shall you reap.

Its universal justice, and it is not blind, for each person has the choice, to act as they will, think as they will and talk as they will, and from that they create their own specific reality.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
May i add something here,

In this illusionary world of suffering, it is desighned that each person creates their seperate reality. How do they do it?

A person creates their reality by their words, thoughts and actions.

Two brothers from the same family, live two seperate lives, one is wealthy and succesfull, and the other is broke and a drug abus ...[text shortened]... think as they will and talk as they will, and from that they create their own specific reality.

"what goes around comes around" and "you reap what you sow" are common philosophies widely accepted from a temporal viewpoint; proposing to someone borne with a disability that they have been deliberately designed that way due to some undisclosed wrongdoing in a previous existence is insulting beyond belief.

My nephew is autistic to the point of not being able to integrate into society and will need full time care all his life - what you you suggest I say to my sister when she is asking why...?

Originally posted by divegeester
"what goes around comes around" and "you reap what you sow" are common philosophies widely accepted from a temporal viewpoint; proposing to someone borne with a disability that they have been deliberately designed that way due to some undisclosed wrongdoing in a previous existence is insulting beyond belief.

My nephew is autistic to the point of not ...[text shortened]... time care all his life - what you you suggest I say to my sister when she is asking why...?

First of all, I will have to give you the short answer, because to explain fully would take twenty pages.

Karma works both ways, first theres the afflicted person, then theres the person who has to be the care giver, and both situations are about karma from last life and past lives.

When one is not on the transcendental platform of living the spiritual life, everything that person does, whether positive or negative, is creating their next body.

Because the person has not the desire for leaving this material world, all their actions, words and thoughts, are preparing them for their next birth.

If your sisters karma was such, that she had to experience the difficulties or even the personal growth that comes from care giving to a family member, then the nephew would have to come into being, to facilitate that situation.

Persons who have raised their consciousness, above the bodily conception of life, and are endeavouring on the spiritual path, do not suffer as others, because they are aware that the body is ultimately just dust in the wind.

The nephew, is living out a birth situation, that he has created for himself, and to figure out what actually took place in the past, is impossible to know.

But before you say, whats the use of having such a birth, if one doesnt know why, i will say this...

In a society where everyone is aware of Karma, and how it works, then people in general, are very carefull what the speak, what they think, and what they do, and they also practice the spiritual principle of purification of mind body and soul.

Seeing a person in a wheel chair with an affliction, is a cold reminder to everyone, that karma is alive and well, but before saying thats insensative, they also are aware, that the afflicted body is only temporary, and that the real person (the soul) is untouched by that affliction.

Your sister has been born, and has died millions of times, and so has the nephew, so in the scope of things,..... so to shall this pass.

What to say to your sister, is not an easy thing, if she is not aware of karma, reincarnation and the factual position of the soul within the temporary material body, so for your sister to be Ok with her situation, then she would have to raise her self above it, and understand it from the perspective that i have given.

I do hope this short answer has helped some way.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
First of all, I will have to give you the short answer, because to explain fully would take twenty pages.

Your sister has been born, and has died millions of times, ...

I do hope this short answer has helped some way.

A million of times you say? Hmm...

Let's say for a moment that one life extends to 30 years on average, and by 'millions' you mean at least two of them, perhaps more. Multiply together and you get a timespan of 60 millions of years and more. Back to the times when dinosaurs thrived on Earth. You say that his sister lived among the dinosaurs?

Rubbish, I say, rubbish.

Is this what you believe in? Is this what you teach people? Then your vedic teachings isn't much worth, no more than rubbish.

I do hope this short answer has helped you in some way to realize that you believe in rubbish.