1. Standard memberRajk999
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    11 Jul '15 21:33
    Its interesting to see the responses of the'faith only' and OSAS Christians in chaney3's thread 'The Atonement of Christ'. It is very easy to justify just about any Christian doctrine using valid Bible teachings. But many of these doctrines do not give the follower of them, the whole picture of what Christ and the Apostles preached.

    At the easiest end of the doctrinal spectrum, there is the one that requires nothing, not even faith or belief. All people are all going be in Gods Kingdom, simply because Christ died for the sins of the whole world. And that is not hard to support from Bible teachings.

    Next come the bulk of Christianity who maintain that once you accept Christ with your mouth and proclaim your faith you are eternally saved notwithstanding any sins however vile and depraved. Again easy to demonstrate that from Bible teachings.

    After that the road gets a bit rockier, with the faith plus works combination as this forces the professed believer to continue on in a particular lifestyle involving charitable works and avoidance of sin otherwise there is no eternal life to gain. Again easy to show where Christ preached this doctrine.

    Finally there is works alone. This applies to those who do not know of Christ or God, but who live lives which are acceptable to God. The Bible also supports this doctrine very clearly.

    Why do people choose to ignore some Bible teachings and proclaim the one they prefer ? If you take all of Bible teachings from Christ and the Apsotles pertaining to eternal life then it teaches that there are many ways to Gods Kingdom all of which are through Christ. Even if you never heard of Christ, it is Christ death and resurrection that saved the world. All come to God through Christ, even the charitable atheist will be in Gods Kingdom... by the invitation of Christ if Christ is pleased with him. [For the OSAS gang - Christ prefers good works to empty words anyday]
  2. SubscriberSuzianne
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    11 Jul '15 23:145 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Its interesting to see the responses of the'faith only' and OSAS Christians in chaney3's thread 'The Atonement of Christ'. It is very easy to justify just about any Christian doctrine using valid Bible teachings. But many of these doctrines do not give the follower of them, the whole picture of what Christ and the Apostles preached.

    At the easiest end o ...[text shortened]... rist is pleased with him. [For the OSAS gang - Christ prefers good works to empty words anyday]
    Still so quick to exalt yourself above others? Above your Christian brothers? Above your neighbors? This is not love. You seek your own glory, not God's. So where is this "doing the will of the Father"? This is not "following the commandments of Christ".

    "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." -- Romans 10:9-10

    Confessing "with thy mouth" was an important part of the world of Christ. This is why men took oaths, oaths of honor, oaths of fealty. If one confessed "with thy mouth", no one could take it back, saying that they "didn't really say it", or that they "didn't mean it".

    The next part is really more important though, and also the part that people like you continually miss and downplay for your own ends. "... and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead". Believing "in thine heart" is important. This is what you believe deep down, that no one can take from you. This is how man will be judged at Judgement, by what is written upon his heart. "Empty words" have no place here.

    So, "with the mouth confession is made unto salvation", and "with the heart men believeth unto righteousness." In fact, this is how one becomes a Christian in the first place, by confessing "with thy mouth the Lord Jesus" "unto salvation", and believing "in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead" "unto righteousness". Confessing unto salvation, and believing unto righteousness. Nothing more is needed.

    We know this is true, because this is the promise of grace. "But what of works?" you say. Works are important, but not as a grantor of salvation, they are only a marker. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9) By grace, faith is what saves, and that comes not from us, as works do, but from God. Works by men of faith come after salvation. We do works because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, it moves us to do good. And this comes after salvation. So works is more a result of salvation than a progenitor of salvation. Who among non-Christians make a life's work of helping others less fortunate? Rare indeed is the man who can put aside his own sin long enough to do good things for others. And I'm not talking about the occasional coin in the parking meter to prevent someone from getting fined, I'm talking about helping one's neighbor at cost to one's self. I'm talking about making a commitment to helping others on a regular basis. Rare it is that this happens because someone takes it upon themselves to help the less fortunate without first dealing with God and their own sin. Most helping others in this world happens because of religious reasons, because these men feel it is the right thing to do according to their religious precepts. In Christians, it comes from the Holy Spirit, guiding us to follow Christ.

    Just as the pre-flight instructions on any airline flight will tell you, you secure your own oxygen mask before attempting to help others with theirs. This is what I am talking about. Works come as a result of one being saved, working under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. With your own oxygen mask in place (your salvation), you are ready to help others.

    So faith, by grace, is what saves us. Confessing with our mouths and believing with our hearts. Our salvation comes from our faith in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. Works come after our salvation, as the Holy Spirit begins to work in us. Consistent good works just shows others that we may already be saved, they are not the grantors of our salvation, but merely a side effect; our salvation comes from Jesus Christ alone.
  3. Standard membervivify
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    11 Jul '15 23:291 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999

    Why do people choose to ignore some Bible teachings and proclaim the one they prefer ?
    Because texts written during ancient times clash with modern sensibilities. For example, Suzianne, a Christian, doesn't believe that women should submit "in all subjection" to their husbands. She's a modern women, who chooses to ignore those types of writing in order to justify being a Christian. It's the same reason why she, and other Christians, use the "Genesis is just a metaphor" defense when it comes to science and creationism. They are fully aware that their ancient texts are stupid if actually taken seriously. The Pope, who has fully embraced the Big Bang, is another example.

    I can go on and on, but you get the point. In an age where someone can communicate with anyone anywhere on the planet in an instant, and in the age of the most advanced period of human history, the bible progressively becomes more and more ludicrous to believe in. Hence, Christians who pick and choose what they'll believe.

    Of course, that's just one reason. There are a lot of Christians who are simply hypocrites. You can see a lot of this from many Republicans who slam the Pope for voicing a political opinion, despite the fact that Jesus did the same. For example, Jesus those who have two coats should give one to someone who doesn't have their own. Republicans call that "enabling moochers".
  4. Standard memberRajk999
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    12 Jul '15 00:25
    Originally posted by vivify
    Because texts written during ancient times clash with modern sensibilities. For example, Suzianne, a Christian, doesn't believe that women should submit "in all subjection" to their husbands. She's a modern women, who chooses to ignore those types of writing in order to justify being a Christian. It's the same reason why she, and other Christians, use the " ...[text shortened]... ould give one to someone who doesn't have their own. Republicans call that "enabling moochers".
    I get your point. Can you find something that Christ said that clashes with modern sensibilities? You probably cannot because Christ teachings are timeless and applicable to all people and all generations .. so the Bible relevant to us is not ludicrous.

    As for hypocritical Christians llike the type you described, Christ minced no words when describing the punishment he has in store for them. Anyone that believes that they can get into Gods Kingdom by ignoring Christ commandments will be in for a surprise.
  5. Standard memberRJHinds
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    12 Jul '15 01:33
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Its interesting to see the responses of the'faith only' and OSAS Christians in chaney3's thread 'The Atonement of Christ'. It is very easy to justify just about any Christian doctrine using valid Bible teachings. But many of these doctrines do not give the follower of them, the whole picture of what Christ and the Apostles preached.

    At the easiest end o ...[text shortened]... rist is pleased with him. [For the OSAS gang - Christ prefers good works to empty words anyday]
    From your last paragraph, it appears you support works salvation, which is the belief of basically all the false religions. I believe the charitable atheist will have his part in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, NOT in Christ's Kingdom. Scipture clearly states:
    And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

    (Hebrews 11:6 NASB)
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    12 Jul '15 01:43
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I get your point. Can you find something that Christ said that clashes with modern sensibilities? You probably cannot because Christ teachings are timeless and applicable to all people and all generations .. so the Bible relevant to us is not ludicrous.

    As for hypocritical Christians llike the type you described, Christ minced no words when describing th ...[text shortened]... s that they can get into Gods Kingdom by ignoring Christ commandments will be in for a surprise.
    Go have a look at the Skeptic's Annotated Bible, and look at the New Testament.

    You cannot go a single chapter without a litany of absurdities, contradictions, injustices, and cruelties.

    I can't put what I really think about 'his teachings' because it's unprintable and would violate the TOS.

    I can however point out that JC was very probably fictional and never said any of these things due to not existing.

    I don't know of any teaching attributed to him that is "timeless and applicable to all people etc" that is in any way
    unique to Christianity or not blindingly obvious and self evident.

    Feel free to try to find an actual teaching that you think qualifies, but the idea that we cannot find stuff that is objectionable
    is so absurd as to beggar belief... Have you not been reading these forums?

    Not least, have this one titbit.

    Matthew 5:
    5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
    5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


    In other words, "I fully endorse and approve of the commandments of the OT".

    Well, you should know what we think of those.
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    12 Jul '15 01:44
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Its interesting to see the responses of the'faith only' and OSAS Christians in chaney3's thread 'The Atonement of Christ'. It is very easy to justify just about any Christian doctrine using valid Bible teachings. But many of these doctrines do not give the follower of them, the whole picture of what Christ and the Apostles preached.

    At the easiest end o ...[text shortened]... rist is pleased with him. [For the OSAS gang - Christ prefers good works to empty words anyday]
    Frankly, you're unclear.

    God's Word is clear. When understood as a whole, 2 Timothy 3:16&17, one realizes he is known of God, and that God will save the one that seeks Him with his whole heart.

    God is not like a man, nor is His thoughts as a man's.

    Isaiah 55:8&9
    For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
    For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    God is light years above man.

    Rajk, you are projecting your own concept of salvation on what the Word of God teaches on the subject. And just as you say in your post above, anyone can make the Bible say what they want it to say, but God means what He says.

    Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved

    Get out from under the law and learn grace.
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    12 Jul '15 01:45
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    From your last paragraph, it appears you support works salvation, which is the belief of basically all the false religions. I believe the charitable atheist will have his part in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, NOT in Christ's Kingdom. Scipture clearly states:
    And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

    (Hebrews 11:6 NASB)
    Thankyou.

    This is another thing we can and do object to, thankyou for that example...

    Although, having said that, you could pretty much have picked any verse from the bible
    and got the same response.
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    12 Jul '15 01:49
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    Go have a look at the Skeptic's Annotated Bible, and look at the New Testament.

    You cannot go a single chapter without a litany of absurdities, contradictions, injustices, and cruelties.

    I can't put what I really think about 'his teachings' because it's unprintable and would violate the TOS.

    I can however point out that JC was very probably fict ...[text shortened]... rse and approve of the commandments of the OT".

    Well, you should know what we think of those.
    "Well, you should know what we think of those."

    That's may be what you think now, but what will you think after this life is over and you find yourself before your maker?

    Oh ya, I forgot, you don't believe that either! 😕
  10. Standard membervivify
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    12 Jul '15 02:411 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I get your point. Can you find something that Christ said that clashes with modern sensibilities.
    You're picking and choosing. Just like how I discussed.

    Why limit the Bible's quotes to what Jesus said? His dad (AKA your god) has said many things that greatly clash with what modern people find civil. It seems that you realize this, hence why you want to cherry pick Jesus.
  11. Standard memberRJHinds
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    12 Jul '15 02:51
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Still so quick to exalt yourself above others? Above your Christian brothers? Above your neighbors? This is not love. You seek your own glory, not God's. So where is this "doing the will of the Father"? This is not "following the commandments of Christ".

    "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart tha ...[text shortened]... rantors of our salvation, but merely a side effect; our salvation comes from Jesus Christ alone.
    Very good, Suzianne. 🙂
  12. Standard memberRJHinds
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    12 Jul '15 02:581 edit
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    Go have a look at the Skeptic's Annotated Bible, and look at the New Testament.

    You cannot go a single chapter without a litany of absurdities, contradictions, injustices, and cruelties.

    I can't put what I really think about 'his teachings' because it's unprintable and would violate the TOS.

    I can however point out that JC was very probably fict ...[text shortened]... rse and approve of the commandments of the OT".

    Well, you should know what we think of those.
    He who covers his sins will not prosper,
    But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.

    (Proverbs 28:13)
    There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

    Luke 13:1-5 NKJV)
    Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

    (Luke 24:46-47 NKJV)
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    12 Jul '15 03:003 edits
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    Go have a look at the Skeptic's Annotated Bible, and look at the New Testament.

    You cannot go a single chapter without a litany of absurdities, contradictions, injustices, and cruelties.

    I can't put what I really think about 'his teachings' because it's unprintable and would violate the TOS.

    I can however point out that JC was very probably fict ...[text shortened]... rse and approve of the commandments of the OT".

    Well, you should know what we think of those.
    In other words, "I fully endorse and approve of the commandments of the OT".

    Much of what Jesus taught while He walked the Earth is heavily steeped in metaphor and abstraction. As such, it's foolhardy to take snippets out of context and take them at face-value. To understand any given teaching, it's imperative to have first analyzed the entirety of His teachings while He walked the Earth and derived the underlying themes and concepts . Unless one has done this, it's pretty easy to misconstrue His meaning as you've done here. From what I can tell, since Christianity is built upon the teaching of Paul and his followers rather than the teachings of Jesus when He walked the Earth, the vast majority of Christians haven't bothered to do it. As a matter of fact, it's been my experience that it's difficult to get Christians to bother to undertake the endeavor. Why don't you give it a go?
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
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    12 Jul '15 03:052 edits
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    Thankyou.

    This is another thing we can and do object to, thankyou for that example...

    Although, having said that, you could pretty much have picked any verse from the bible
    and got the same response.
    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    (Galatians 2:16 NKJV)

    The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord,
    But the prayer of the upright is His delight.

    (Proverbs 15:8 NKJV)
    If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

    (1 Corinthians 3:14-15 NKJV)

    But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

    There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

    For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

    (Romans 2:5-16 NKJV)
  15. Standard memberRJHinds
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    12 Jul '15 03:381 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    Because texts written during ancient times clash with modern sensibilities. For example, Suzianne, a Christian, doesn't believe that women should submit "in all subjection" to their husbands. She's a modern women, who chooses to ignore those types of writing in order to justify being a Christian. It's the same reason why she, and other Christians, use the " ...[text shortened]... ould give one to someone who doesn't have their own. Republicans call that "enabling moochers".
    The Holy Bible has a variety of types of literature. History, poetry, prophecy, proverbs, and instructions in righteousnes. And all literary devices, such as metaphors, analogies, allegories, and figures of speech to name a few. Chapter 3 of Genesis must be an allegory, however, chapter one and probably the remainder or it is history and prophecy, in my opinion.
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