Originally posted by googlefudge
My point, oh incredibly dense one, is that it is utterly nonsensical for an omnipotent god to try to communicate
its rules and laws and wisdom of the cosmos in terms that a vague and open to interpretation.

The fact that the bible IS vague and open to interpretation is testament to the fact that it is not written by a god.

However, when dealing w ...[text shortened]... people who were acting just as if the words and testaments of the bible were written literally.

Since the penny still hasn't dropped, I'm going to try to explain this to you another way.

As a DIRECT RESULT of your line of "reason", you insist on taking what Jesus taught out of context and at face-value despite the brute fact that much of what Jesus taught while He walked the Earth is heavily steeped in metaphor and abstraction. True or not true?

Now if you had merely claimed that Jesus could not have been speaking for God using your line of "reason", that claim would have been logical. A claim based upon a dubious premise, but logical.

But to go the further step of concluding that everything that Jesus taught be taken at face-value is illogical. That you do so despite the brute fact that much of what Jesus taught is heavily steeped in metaphor and abstraction is absurdly illogical.

Originally posted by googlefudge
As if?

No I was actually not being an ass, you picked this fight all on your own.

I pointed out a DIRECT RESULT of your line of "reason".

Perhaps that you pitched a hissy fit for my doing so shows that on some level, you understand that your position is absurd.

Originally posted by Rajk999
And that is the whole thing? What about:

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they ha ...[text shortened]... ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. (Matthew 25:41-43 KJV)


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Originally posted by Rajk999
"And that is the whole thing? What about:?

2 Timothy 2:23-25 "Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,"

Proverbs 10:12 "Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Since the penny still hasn't dropped, I'm going to try to explain this to you another way.

As a DIRECT RESULT of your line of "reason", you insist on taking what Jesus taught out of context and at face-value despite the brute fact that much of what Jesus taught while He walked the Earth is heavily steeped in metaphor and abstraction. True or not true? ...[text shortened]... much of what Jesus taught is heavily steeped in metaphor and abstraction is absurdly illogical.

As a DIRECT RESULT of your line of "reason", you insist on taking what Jesus taught out of context and at face-value despite the brute fact that much of what Jesus taught while He walked the Earth is heavily steeped in metaphor and abstraction. True or not true?

FALSE.

Christ NEVER EXISTED and thus never taught anything to be taken out of context.

ALSO. IF we take it as a historical document written by people of the time then we know those people often
used metaphor and should take that into account.

BUT

IF we take it as the word of god and instructions and laws that we are meant to follow from this god then it is
utterly nonsensical that such a god would communicate in a way utterly open to interpretation and miscommunication
of their meaning and thus it makes sense to analyse it differently [literally] than if you were analysing a historical document.

This view is entirely self consistent and logical, despite your heroic efforts to miss-understand me.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I pointed out a DIRECT RESULT of your line of "reason".

Perhaps that you pitched a hissy fit for my doing so shows that on some level, you understand that your position is absurd.

I didn't, and haven't pitched a hissy-fit.

You have however.

Something you seem prone to.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by Rajk999
"And that is the whole thing? What about:?

2 Timothy 2:23-25 "Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may pe ...[text shortened]... wledge of the truth,"

Proverbs 10:12 "Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses."

You cannot possibly be claiming to have truth as you ignore a significant part of the teachings of Christ and the Apostles so clearly you are calling their teachings ignorant and foolish.

Originally posted by KellyJay
"Some have been given the power of the holy spirit and have abused it."

What do you mean by this, someone can abuse God?

Christians can and do abuse the power given to them. Read this:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)

They fall away, they sin, they deny Christ, or some such thing happened and the end is that they shame Christ and they are refused forgiveness. Sounds very bad for those Christians.

Originally posted by KellyJay
It does not matter to me what they do and do not do, if you belong to God in Christ and are
following Him you'll be saved. People can claim to be and do anything, none of our claims
or efforts really matter, only what Jesus did for us and how we respond to Him. If we claim
to know God and refuse to follow Him, than that will be painfully clear in the end ...[text shortened]... work for a pay check.

So do you believe anyone can be saved by works apart from Jesus Christ?

What do you mean by 'apart from Jesus Christ'? and/or What is NOT APART from Christ?

Explain with an example maybe.

Originally posted by Rajk999
What do you mean by 'apart from Jesus Christ'? and/or What is NOT APART from Christ?

Explain with an example maybe.

Jesus' words are very clear on this topic here is one example. He breaks out all people
into two different groups, those that believe in Him, and those that do not. If you see
some way that is not true, please share. Unless you want to suggest that not everyone
is a sinner than you have another topic you and scripture disagree.

John 3 NIV
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Originally posted by Rajk999
And that is the whole thing? What about:

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they ha ...[text shortened]... ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. (Matthew 25:41-43 KJV)


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Originally posted by Rajk999
"And that is the whole thing? What about..."
___________________

It's about the fallacious human notion that salvation is earned by works which is anathema to God's grace gift of salvation by faith alone in Christ alone; unbelievers have no purchasing power with God. Why? Because Jesus Christ already paid the price in full during the final three hours of His substitutionary spiritual death [total separation from God the Father] on behalf of all mankind. That's why.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by Rajk999
"And that is the whole thing? What about..."
___________________

It's about the fallacious human notion that salvation is earned by works which is anathema to God's grace gift of salvation by faith alone in Christ alone; unbelievers have no purchasing power with God. Why? Because Jesus Christ already paid the price in ...[text shortened]... ary spiritual death [total separation from God the Father] on behalf of all mankind. That's why.

Again 'read the whole thing .. dammit' applies very nicely to you because that is not all the Bible says about salvation.

Christ paid the price YES ... BUT !!!

Figure out what the BUT is ..

Originally posted by KellyJay
Jesus' words are very clear on this topic here is one example. He breaks out all people
into two different groups, those that believe in Him, and those that do not. If you see
some way that is not true, please share. Unless you want to suggest that not everyone
is a sinner than you have another topic you and scripture disagree.

John 3 NIV
16 For God ...[text shortened]... ight, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Ok good. However Christ also said that many would claim to believe but not actually do so in practice. So there are two kinds of people who 'believe'. .. those who actually believe with their whole being, heart and soul and those who just profess to believe with their mouth.

So what you quoted is not the whole story as it was explained and elaborated upon by Christ and all the Apostles. Someone therefore can 'believe' and still be apart from Christ.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Ok good. However Christ also said that many would claim to believe but not actually do so in practice. So there are two kinds of people who 'believe'. .. those who actually believe with their whole being, heart and soul and those who just profess to believe with their mouth.

So what you quoted is not the whole story as it was explained and elaborated upo ...[text shortened]... by Christ and all the Apostles. Someone therefore can 'believe' and still be apart from Christ.

If you do not mind, it appears you are adding to Jesus words here, can you back up what
you just said with scripture. Either way, even if there are those that believe and there are
two types of believers, those that do not are still all condemned according to Jesus.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Again 'read the whole thing .. dammit' applies very nicely to you because that is not all the Bible says about salvation.

Christ paid the price YES ... BUT !!!

Figure out what the BUT is ..[/b]

"Read the Whole Thing .. Dammit !"
Originally posted by Rajk999
"Christ paid the price YES ... BUT !!!

Figure out what the BUT is .."
__________________

Rajk999, one final question: Would Jesus Christ Himself have replied with,

"YES ... BUT !!!

Figure out what the BUT is .." as you have?

Originally posted by KellyJay
If you do not mind, it appears you are adding to Jesus words here, can you back up what
you just said with scripture. Either way, even if there are those that believe and there are
two types of believers, those that do not are still all condemned according to Jesus.

Thanks for being here, Kelly.