Relationship with God

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"I accepted your theist premise..." and continue to accept your theist premise that "All theists purport to have a relationship with God of some sort." as a premise which you believe. The premise is incorrect to the extent that being a theist doesn't necessarily equate with believing in Christ or being a Christian (the basis of having a relationship with God).

Obviously non-Christian theists don't share your belief in Christ. Obviously non-Christian theists are not Christians. So that aside, do you agree with the statement "All theists purport to have a relationship with God of some sort" or not?

edit for typo

Originally posted by Nick Bourbaki
Obviously non-Christian theists don't share your belief in Christ. Obviously non-Christian theists and not Christians. So that aside, do you agree with the statement "All theists purport to have a relationship with God of some sort" or not?

Originally posted by Nick Bourbaki
Obviously non-Christian theists don't share your belief in Christ. Obviously non-Christian theists [and] not Christians. So that aside, do you agree with the statement "All theists purport to have a relationship with God of some sort" or not?

"[and]" = are?

If so, without a basis, it's doubtful these theists would claim to have Relationship with God as identified in the original post.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (OP)
Relationship with God

"Adoption Introduction: The Scriptures teach that God has adopted two groups of people in history: (1) Israel (Deuteronomy 7:6; Romans 9:1-5) (2) Church (Romans 8:15; Ephesians 1:5). At the moment of conversion when they exercise faith alone in Christ alone the church age believer is adopted Roman style into the royal family of God through the baptism of the Spirit thus making him an heir of God and spiritual aristocracy. In adoption they receive the position of a son of God at the moment of conversion through the baptism of the Spirit. Every Christian obtains the place of a child and the right to be called a son the moment he believes in Jesus Christ for salvation (Galatians 3:25-26; 4:6; 1 John 3:1-2).

The New Testament teaches that the church has been adopted into the royal family of God as adult sons thus conferring upon them all the privileges and responsibilities that go along with this new relationship with God. The indwelling of the Spirit gives the guarantee of the believer’s adoption (Galatians 4:6). The filling of the Spirit enables the believer to experience his adoption. The full manifestation of the believer’s sonship awaits the resurrection of the church or the rapture which is called the “redemption of the body” (Romans 8:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17; Ephesians 1:14; 1 John 3:2).

The believer’s adoption into the royal family of God makes him an heir of God (Romans 8:15-17). The church age believer has been removed from the cosmic system as a child of the devil and has been placed as an adult son into the royal family of God, of which the Lord Jesus Christ is the Head (Colossians 1:13). Adoption means that the church age believer is spiritual aristocracy now and is intimately related to all three members of the Trinity. The adoption of the church age believer means: (1) Privileges as an adult son of God (2) Responsibility to grow to spiritual maturity. Romans 8:15 teaches that the church age believer has been adopted “Romans style” into the royal family of God."

"Adoption Responsibilities that go along with this new relationship with God. The indwelling of the Spirit gives the guarantee of the believer's adoption." Galatians 4: 4-7 "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5. so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7. Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God." ["Abbá! Father!" also used as the term of tender endearment by a beloved child." -Strongs] 2013 Pastor/Teacher William E. Wenstrom, Jr. Bible Ministries

http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/soteriology/adoption.pdf

Purpose: To provide a point of reference for the consideration of those who doubt the authenticity of Relationship with God.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
If so, without a basis, it's doubtful these theists would claim to have Relationship with God as identified in the original post.

So you do agree with the statement "All theists purport to have a relationship with God of some sort" while at the same you want to stress that you think the relationship you purport to have with God is real and that the relationship that theists (who have different faith from yours) purport to have with God is not real, yes?

Do you imagine other non-Christian theists' perception of their relationship with God can be every bit as sincere and as certain as yours?

Originally posted by Nick Bourbaki
So you do agree with the statement "All theists purport to have a relationship with God of some sort" while at the same you want to stress that you think the relationship you purport to have with God is real and that the relationship that theists (who have different faith from yours) purport to have with God is not real, yes?

Do you imagine other no ...[text shortened]... ' perception of their relationship with God can be every bit as sincere and as certain as yours?

As stated moments ago, "If so, without a basis, it's doubtful these theists would claim to have Relationship with God as identified in the original post."

"(who have different faith from yours)" -NB

Faith is one of three means of human perception (along with empiricism and rationalism). In context, the crux issue is the object of faith. Without faith in the Person of Christ there is no Salvation or Royal Family Status or Relationship with God.

Note: Long day; time for sleep @ GMT-5. Thanks for our conversation.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
As stated moments ago, "If so, without a basis, it's doubtful these theists would claim to have Relationship with God as identified in the original post."

"(who have different faith from yours)" -NB

Faith is one of three means of human perception (along with empiricism and rationalism). In context, the crux issue is the object of faith. Without fa ...[text shortened]... r Relationship with God.

Note: Long day; time for sleep @ GMT-5. Thanks for our conversation.

Perhaps you need to choose between attempting to proselytize and attempting to discuss something. 🙂

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Faith is one of three means of human perception (along with empiricism and rationalism). In context, the crux issue is the object of faith. Without faith in the Person of Christ there is no Salvation or Royal Family Status or Relationship with God.

I asked you whether you think non-Christians' perception of their relationship with God can be every bit as sincere and as certain as yours, and you still can't bring yourself to answer it for some reason, even with a thread title that is "Relationship with God" and an OP that expresses one particular religion's viewpoint. It's as if you're a little bit flustered. 🙂

Originally posted by Nick Bourbaki
I asked you whether you think non-Christians' perception of their relationship with God can be every bit as sincere and as certain as yours, and you still can't bring yourself to answer it for some reason, even with a thread title that is "Relationship with God" and an OP that expresses one particular religion's viewpoint. It's as if you're a little bit flustered. 🙂

Nick, your well honed psychological autopsy skills suggest your practice may be in the field of conversational pathology.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Nick, your well honed psychological autopsy skills suggest your practice may be in the field of conversational pathology.

More dodging. 😀

The question could hardly be more straight forward and more on-topic.

Originally posted by Nick Bourbaki
More dodging. 😀

The question could hardly be more straight forward and more on-topic.

Please state one question that hasn't already been answered.

1.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Please state one question that hasn't already been answered.

1.

Thank you.

Do you think non-Christians' perception of their relationship with God can be every bit as sincere and as certain as yours?

Do you think non-Christians' perception of their relationship with God can be every bit as sincere and as certain as yours?

Nick, let's not leave you thinking your question is evaded.

I suppose in some instances even greater "sincerity" may be felt by a non-Christian.

We could say that obsession can lead to some kinds of excessive sincerity also.

What is more interesting is the truth or non-truth of what is being sincerly affirmed. Galileo had to temper his sincerity about the Sun being the center of the solar system in the face of a life threatening religious power structure.

Possibly some other scientist would have not allowed his sincerity to be dampened even in the face of death. Perhaps some other person might have died to maintain that the earth in fact DID revolve around the Sun.

Regardless of the level of various people's sincerity I think we know that the earth does revolve around the sun. It was not effected by level's of sincerity displayed by various scientists.

It is only so much interesting to me, this question of who is the most sincere. More interesting to me is what is the truth.

My one adjustment I would make to Grampy's OP is that the word "Adoption" is better translated, I think, as sonship. And in Ephesians 1:5 and a few other places, I prefer "sonship" as it denotes a more "organic" relationship with God as a begetting Father rather than a more legal term like "adoption."

This may be influenced by how "adoption" has taken on a connotation which is more legal. I adopt some kids in a legal way. But I beget some kids in a more organic way. My life has organically brought them forth. I have not just legally secured a position for them in my family. They have my life in them.

So I prefer the RcV translation to many English ones in Ephesians 1:5 and Romans 8:23:

"Predestinating us unto SONSHIP through Jesus Christ ...."

" ... awaiting SONSHIP, the redemption of our body."

I think this makes the Greek word there more an expression of "organic" life rather than just legality. I did notice the mention of "growth" in one of the points which implies "organic" life.

Originally posted by sonship
Nick, let's not leave you thinking your question is evaded.

OK then. All theists [i.e. Christians and non-Christians] purport to have a relationship of some sort with God. Agree or disagree? I know you are a Christian; I am not asking you to agree with non-Christian theologies. I am asking whether you think that it is only Christians who purport to have a relationship with God. This appears to be Grampy Bobby's view. Is it your view too? I welcome your willingness to not be evasive.

OK then. All theists [i.e. Christians and non-Christians] purport to have a relationship of some sort with God. Agree or disagree?

I think "relationship" is okay to use as long as you expand the meaning to include simple creation.

Some theist would define her relationship to be that of creator to Creator, and no more. Are you willing to acknowledge that some "relationships" confessed by both Christians and non-Christians would include the relationship of merely being God's creature?

Yes?
No?

I know you are a Christian; I am not asking you to agree with non-Christian theologies.

You are taking my word for it that I am a disciple of Jesus Christ.

As for agreeing with non-Christian theologies? On some matters in which non-Christian theologies touch on what I would say is the truth, I would have to agree.

Ie. I agree somewhat with the Buddhist that there is at least something illusory about life in the world. They are non-Christian.

I would agree somewhat with a Moslem that there is a Creator God Who brought the universe into being. They are non-Christian.

I would agree with somethings a Baha'i might say about God's goodness, or what a Unitarian might say about God's love, or what an orthodox Jew might teach about God's holiness.

Probably all of them would speak of some kind of relationship they have to God.

I am asking whether you think that it is only Christians who purport to have a relationship with God.

I think by now you can notice that "a relationship" of some kind is not the sole claim of the Christian.

This appears to be Grampy Bobby's view. Is it your view too? I welcome your willingness to not be evasive.

You should be able to see by now that "a relationship with God" we have to recognize has a large scope.

A creature to a Creator = a relationship.
A servant to a Master = a relationship.
Even and punished sinner to a righteous Judge = a relationship.

Certainly a subject to a King = a relationship.
Even a tree or a rock as an item of creation could be said to have a relationship to God.

But let's get down to what I think you are really interested in.
How many claim a kind of intimate or personal relationship with God?

I don't know how many claim "relationship with God" in the terms that the New Testament speaks. Probably I could find some. More often when I question some closely what turns out is that they know some things about God, is what they mean. Often the "relationship" is that they have some accurate information about what God is like.

Sometimes if I press hard it will eventually come out that they do not know God subjectively and intimately.

I would not feel safe to say there are no exceptions to this.

The Apostle Paul speaking to the philosophers on Mars Hill told them that everyone, in a sense, lives and moves in God.

" ... He [God] is not far from each one of us; For in Him we live and move and are, as even some poets among you have said, For we are also His race." (Acts 17:28)

In all of the Bible I can think of no other passage which admits so strongly a universal relationship of all human beings with God. Perhaps Genesis 1:26,27 is a rival. So the philosophical poets in Greece, Paul would say spoke truth, in their admission of a "relationship with God" - "For we also are His race."

I'll stop here.

Originally posted by Nick Bourbaki
Do you think non-Christians' perception of their relationship with God can be every bit as sincere and as certain as yours?

Originally posted by Nick Bourbaki
Do you think non-Christians' perception of their relationship with God can be every bit as sincere and as certain as yours?

My belief in Christ and personal relationship with God the Father have never been based on "sincere" emotions or mystical activities or feeling good from doing good deeds or the approbation of a pat on the back from some pastor whose sermons are devoid of doctrinal content. This notion of Christianity is divorced from the truth. A believer's relationship with God is based on thought and respect from the content of Bible Doctrine in his or her soul. Only assimilated bible doctrine enables the believer to grow in grace to maturity; to know God and to stand in reverential awe of the Members of the Trinity. Only then is there tranquility of soul and contentment; an appreciation and response of gratitude for Divine Integrity and Plan of Grace; personal love for God and occupation with the Person of Christ as a member of His Royal Family. Period.

Footnote: Do you know where "sincerity" is in the dictionary? It's between sh-- and syphilis (and somehow serendipitously belongs there). If there's nothing nice to say about someone, many say "Well at least he or she's a 'nice' person'". What a useless word. "Nick's genuine" or "an authentic person" rather than, "He's a nice guy". Sincerity doesn't cut it with God.