RHP Spirituality Forum Gym

Originally posted by josephw
Well, of course it's religion. Atheists don't know anything about the after life or about anything spiritual, that's why they spend so much time arguing about religion.

After all, that's all they can see.

Though doesn't seem that all human beings who have ever contemplated physical death have wondered about eternity?

Originally posted by FMF
Dignity? What are you on about? It's depraved.

"Sober responsibility" is the creed of abusive partners and wife beaters down through history.

Your ideology is deeply obnoxious.

What do you have to say to make a non-believer believe the morally unhinged thing that you just so happen to believe? If your ideology is sound, what have you got to say to a mor ...[text shortened]... erson who isn't a "rapist" or a member of a group of "rapists" (your earlier attempted analogy)?

Dignity? What are you on about? It's depraved.

I believe that in human history no one expressed such honor and dignity as Jesus Christ. He not only expressed goodness, He did so gloriously.

Perfect righteousness was defined and testified to in all His life on earth.
So I disagree that Jesus expressed that which was "depraved". Rather Jesus Christ exemplified the highest possible divine and human honor.

"Sober responsibility" is the creed of abusive partners and wife beaters down through history.

The leap is nonsensical to me.
The association between wife beating and rejecting God incarnate and dying to demonstrate His sacrificial love is truly depraved.

Your ideology is deeply obnoxious.

No it isn't.
I realize that beyond God, above God, higher than God, aside from God there is no other court of appeal. I realize that righteousness is ultimate in God.

I think this was demonstrated by the man whose impact on civilization has been stronger than any other human being. I believe that man was God become a man.

What do you offer me that possesses more dignity than the Person of Jesus ?

What do you have to say to make a non-believer believe the morally

To make an unbeliever consider believing I let them watch the way I live and I refer them to Jesus Christ in the Bible.

I trust that as the Holy Spirit opened my inner eyes and my heart to believe in the Son of God, He certainly can do the same for others.

The result is up to God. I am just an ambassador.

... unhinged thing that you just so happen to believe?

I don't know what "unhinged" means. But it sounds derogatory.

I found God believable. I think I may have started with the New Testament and gradually was convinced from the rest of the Bible.

This Person - Jesus of Nazareth, to me is a believable Person. His magnificent words are matched by His miraculous resurrection from the dead. I read the four Gospels and Acts and the letters of the apostles like Paul, and I say to myself - "This Person Jesus Christ is a believable Person. I do not believe such a character could or was the product of any human imagination."

Then meeting Him through the indwelling Holy Spirit seals that I am on the right track.

The words from His mouth which are fearful, though I may not like them, are His words, I am convinced.

There may be some distance today in my attitude about the destiny of the lost and God's attitude. But I see that His eternal purpose includes to conform me to His image. So the day will arrive when I will see everything through His eyes. I will see the matter of eternal life and eternal punishment the way the Son of God sees them.

If your ideology is sound, what have you got to say to a morally sound person who isn't a "rapist" or a member of a group of "rapists" (your earlier attempted analogy)?

I am not sure what you are after here or what you want.

My point was that we sinners all have a vested interest to get away with being in rebellion against God. So naturally, the consequences of the penalty for it we would like to eliminate or downplay.

Suppose we found a higher God to correct the errors of the Bible's God?
What happens when we disagree with THAT Higher God ?
Then we would have to find an even higher one then that one.
This implies an infinite regress of finding ever MORE righteous Gods to straighten out morally the subordinate one.

Suppose after we appeal to ever higher authority we finally reach the end of the line - the Final and Highest Authority ? Now when we reject this One where else is there to go?

I don't believe in an infinite regress of ever higher Moral Beings to adjust for the Bible's God's wrongs. I believe that the moral judgment stops with God. Beyond Him and above Him there is no other appeal.

To assume that the creature is bestowed with superior rightness with which to adjust his Creator's shortcomings, doesn't make sense to me. I think the effect cannot be greater than the cause. And I don't think God could bestow upon the creature that which He did not have in Himself to give.

So God is the Most High. And as much as it is possible for us to comprehend, He took on blood and flesh, became a man and laid down all that He was out of love, that we might be saved from offending the Perfect.

The words concerning joining the Devil in eternal punishment, I think, were words out of the mouth of Jesus. It was certainly not the only thing Jesus spoke of. He said plenty more and many other things. But He did speak of this matter of eternal punishment.

I am compelled to accept that it must be just and must be true.

Originally posted by sonship

Dignity? What are you on about? It's depraved.

I believe that in human history no one expressed such honor and dignity as Jesus Christ. He not only expressed goodness, He did so gloriously.

Perfect righteousness was defined and testified to in all His life on earth.
So I disagree that Jesus expressed that which was "depraved". Ra ...[text shortened]... ter of eternal punishment.

I am compelled to accept that it must be just and must be true.

Originally posted by sonship

Dignity? What are you on about? It's depraved.

I believe that in human history no one expressed such honor and dignity as Jesus Christ. He not only expressed goodness, He did so gloriously.

Perfect righteousness was defined and testified to in all His life on earth.
So I disagree that Jesus expressed that which was "depraved". Rather Jesus Christ exemplified the highest possible divine and human honor.

"Sober responsibility" is the creed of abusive partners and wife beaters down through history.

The leap is nonsensical to me.
The association between wife beating and rejecting God incarnate and dying to demonstrate His sacrificial love is truly depraved.

Your ideology is deeply obnoxious.

No it isn't.
I realize that beyond God, above God, higher than God, aside from God there is no other court of appeal. I realize that righteousness is ultimate in God.

I think this was demonstrated by the man whose impact on civilization has been stronger than any other human being. I believe that man was God become a man.

What do you offer me that possesses more dignity than the Person of Jesus ?

What do you have to say to make a non-believer believe the morally

To make an unbeliever consider believing I let them watch the way I live and I refer them to Jesus Christ in the Bible.

I trust that as the Holy Spirit opened my inner eyes and my heart to believe in the Son of God, He certainly can do the same for others.

The result is up to God. I am just an ambassador.

... unhinged thing that you just so happen to believe?

I don't know what "unhinged" means. But it sounds derogatory.

I found God believable. I think I may have started with the New Testament and gradually was convinced from the rest of the Bible.

This Person - Jesus of Nazareth, to me is a believable Person. His magnificent words are matched by His miraculous resurrection from the dead. I read the four Gospels and Acts and the letters of the apostles like Paul, and I say to myself - "This Person Jesus Christ is a believable Person. I do not believe such a character could or was the product of any human imagination."

Then meeting Him through the indwelling Holy Spirit seals that I am on the right track.

The words from His mouth which are fearful, though I may not like them, are His words, I am convinced.

There may be some distance today in my attitude about the destiny of the lost and God's attitude. But I see that His eternal purpose includes to conform me to His image. So the day will arrive when I will see everything through His eyes. I will see the matter of eternal life and eternal punishment the way the Son of God sees them.

If your ideology is sound, what have you got to say to a morally sound person who isn't a "rapist" or a member of a group of "rapists" (your earlier attempted analogy)?

I am not sure what you are after here or what you want.

My point was that we sinners all have a vested interest to get away with being in rebellion against God. So naturally, the consequences of the penalty for it we would like to eliminate or downplay.

Suppose we found a higher God to correct the errors of the Bible's God?
What happens when we disagree with THAT Higher God ?
Then we would have to find an even higher one then that one.
This implies an infinite regress of finding ever MORE righteous Gods to straighten out morally the subordinate one.

Suppose after we appeal to ever higher authority we finally reach the end of the line - the Final and Highest Authority ? Now when we reject this One where else is there to go?

I don't believe in an infinite regress of ever higher Moral Beings to adjust for the Bible's God's wrongs. I believe that the moral judgment stops with God. Beyond Him and above Him there is no other appeal.

To assume that the creature is bestowed with superior rightness with which to adjust his Creator's shortcomings, doesn't make sense to me. I think the effect cannot be greater than the cause. And I don't think God could bestow upon the creature that which He did not have in Himself to give.

So God is the Most High. And as much as it is possible for us to comprehend, He took on blood and flesh, became a man and laid down all that He was out of love, that we might be saved from offending the Perfect.

The words concerning joining the Devil in eternal punishment, I think, were words out of the mouth of Jesus. It was certainly not the only thing Jesus spoke of. He said plenty more and many other things. But He did speak of this matter of eternal punishment.

I am compelled to accept that it must be just and must be true.

You are in hair dryer mode. An ideology in which a "God" figure seeks to extort "love" using vengeful threats of "eternal torture" is morally depraved.

Originally posted by FMF

You are in hair dryer mode. An ideology in which a "God" figure seeks to extort "love" using vengeful threats of "eternal torture" is morally depraved.

What is wrong with God taking revenge ?
Do you think His laws are frivolous without penalty to them?

Do you think God is just posturing with no real penalty for unrighteousness being done?

I think you are rendered in a sentimental and drunken stupor of permissiveness. As God is righteous He hates evil. As He is the ruler of all, He makes laws. Affixed to these laws are righteous penalties which God as True and Just must execute.

"Thou art not a God which hast pleasure in wickedness; neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in they sight; THOU HATEST ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing (lying); The Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man" (Psalm 5:4-6)

What inspires love is to what extent God went that we would be saved from our sins.

Did you mention the answer to my question ? What do you offer me that exemplifies more dignity, more majesty and honorableness than the Person of Jesus Christ ?

I think you offer nothing surpassing Christ to me. So you mentioned nothing.

The Perfect cannot but hate evil. And this hatred is of an infinite displeasure. The Gospel is that divine judgement fell upon the Son that we might be saved. God calls for us to believe the Son.

Many of us in fact did not love Christ that much when we first came to Him. But we obeyed to believe the believable One.

"Whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Your charge of extortion to love God by threats are a caricature and a twisting of what it says. God calls firstly for the sinner under condemnation to believe in the Son.

The one who refuses to believe refuses forgiveness. And he will feel that awful justice of the Perfect's infinite displeasure with sin. He will experience God manifesting His power to inflict misery upon His enemies.

As astonishing His wrath is also astonishing His love in giving His Righteous Son that upon Him should fall the penalty due to us.

What you display is a one-sided intense appreciation for pain; but a light appreciation of sin and its just penalty. I don't trust the sentiment of this kind of heart. As Jeremiah said it is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

So if eternal punishment is unjust then you must discard the entire Bible. For the Bible teaches among other things the matter of eternal punishment for rejecting to believe in the Redeemer the Son of God.

Originally posted by sonship
I think you are rendered in a sentimental and drunken stupor of permissiveness. As God is righteous He hates evil. As He is the ruler of all, He makes laws. Affixed to these laws are righteous penalties which God as True and Just must execute.

I find the extorted-"love"-obedience-"inflict misery" ideology morally reprehensible. Humans who emulate this ideology are among the most evil in history.Indeed, I believe your 'eternal torture in burning agony' concept is the most depraved and deepest darkest notion that superstitious humans have ever dredged up from their imaginations.

You may wish to explain away my disgust with your "eternal torture" ideology by insulting me ["sentimental", "drunken stupor", "permissiveness"] and analogizing me with "rapists", but your pouting hostility and the stupendous (and imaginary) violence you endorse has no chance of turning me into a believer. You are like a lighthouse warning people away from the deadly rocks of your proselytising vanity.

Originally posted by sonship
I think you offer nothing surpassing Christ to me. So you mentioned nothing.

Just because you trot out your codified superstitions here day in day out does not mean anyone has any obligation to try to emulate you or offer counter-superstitions. I am not a regurgitating religionist. I am not trying to proselytise you. I am just responding to those parts of your ideology that I find utterly grotesque which you air here in this public arena.

Question: Is sin the issue at the Great White Throne Judgment when all unbelievers will be indicted?

Answer: No. Sin will not be mentioned. God keeps two books: The Book of Life and The Book of Works.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Question: Is sin the issue at the Great White Throne Judgment when all unbelievers will be indicted?

It appears ~ according to the ideology that people like you propagate ~ that a combination of revenge, wrath, torture, and the inflicting of misery is the issue for your God figure.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Question: Is sin the issue at the Great White Throne Judgment when all unbelievers will be indicted?

Answer: No. Sin will not be mentioned. God keeps two books: The Book of Life and The Book of Works.

"Question: Is sin the issue at the Great White Throne Judgment when all unbelievers will be indicted?"

But they wouldn't be there if they hadn't died in their sin.

"Answer: No. Sin will not be mentioned. God keeps two books: The Book of Life and The Book of Works."

Their "works" are of the flesh. It and they will be destroyed in the lake of fire.

Originally posted by FMF
It appears ~ according to the ideology that people like you propagate ~ that a combination of revenge, wrath, torture, and the inflicting of misery is the issue for your God figure.

To you it's just an ideology, one that you can neither verify nor deny because you can offer no other alternative, and because you really don't know whether it is true or not.

All you can do is misrepresent in a negative light a "God figure" you don't believe exists.

Upon what authority do you call to offer an alternative "God figure" that doesn't exact revenge and pour out His wrath on an unbelieving world?

Is your "God figure" just going to give a pass to murderers for example?

Our God sent His son into this world to pay sin's debt. Jesus was crucified as a propitiation for all who will believe and trust in His substitutionary death on our behalf.

Rejection of God's Christ means death to those who fail to believe.

The judgement, vengeance and wrath of God is eternal, but so is the gift of life.

That is what the Word of God teaches. God's Word is the final authority.

And unless you can come up with a greater authority than God's Word you may as well give it up.

Originally posted by FMF

Just because you trot out your codified superstitions here day in day out does not mean anyone has any obligation to try to emulate you or offer counter-superstitions. I am not a regurgitating religionist.

Hmm. I see.
Are you a regurgitating secular humanist ?
You come off as that and with complaint that the life of God and Christ exemplifies the "depraved" yet offer nothing and no one else as a superior example of dignity.

I think you are erecting out of proportion a kind of warped obsession with the matter in order to portray the Gospel as
"Love Me or Be Tortured" message.

I would not feel I was being honest if I tempted to morph the whole New Testament into this caricature. The subject of judgment is there in the NT but there is no reason to obsess that no other angle of the Gospel is as powerfully presented.

Take John's Gospel of 21 chapters:

Chapter 1 - Plenty mention of Christ's glory and finding life in Him, finding Light in Him. No mention of eternal punishment.

Chapter 2 - Christ came to turn death into life. The enjoyment of the world runs out. First the good comes and then the poor and vastly inferior. Christ saves the best quality of enjoyment after the world's poor substitutes have sadly run out.

No mention of eternal punishment I can see in chapter 2.

Chapter 3 - Here Christ speaks of being reborn and the world "perish" is used. It is accurate to say chapter 3 does say something about the wrath of God.

Chapter 4 . Here is a story about a woman who was a sinner, not stressing so much her "badness". But rather what is emphasized is her utter thirst, her unquenched longing for happiness.

No mention of eternal damnation in chapter 4 I recall.

Chapter 5 - Here's a hungry crowd that wants to force Jesus to be a king. He feeds them. But He refuses to be forced to be their king. Judgment is mentioned in chapter 5.

Chapter 6 - Christ comes down to feed man's abject HUNGER for life. No mention of hell as far as I recall in chapter 6.

Chapter 7 - Here again is an emphasis on the "thirst" of man for life. We believe in Christ that we may come unto Him and "drink".

No mention of eternal damnation I recall in chapter 7 either.
Someone correct me if I err.

Chapter 8 - Christ convicts the consciences of the religious and self righteous mob. He argues that He is the I AM - the Old Testament God now incarnate as a man.

I don't readily recall a mention of damnation in chapter 8.
Someone can double check me as I do this essentially by memory.

Chapter 9 - This is a chapter about spiritual blindness. Christ comes to heal spiritual blindness. The religionists are offended and throw the healed one out of the synagogue for being born blind but being HEALED to see by the Son of God.

Cannot recall much talk of hell fire in chapter 9.

Chapter 10 - Christ is the Good Shepherd. No one can pluck the sheep out of His hand of power and the Father's hand of love. He is the pasture too. He is the gate to the pasture as well. Christ, the Wonderful One is the Shepherd, the Pasture, the Gate of the sheep. He comes to give LIFE and to give it abundantly.

Not much talk of eternal fire in chapter 10.

Chapter 11 - Christ is the resurrection and the life. Not only does He cure spiritual death. He is the answer for actual physical death as well. The man Lazarus is raised after four days of being dead.

I have to hunt for any talk of hell fire in chapter 11 too. Cannot recall any discussion there of eternal punishment.

So far I think you are morphing the Gospel into a caricature which has ONLY one angle. This represents more a warped myopic criticism than the real nature of the Gospel of John.

Chapter 12 - Has the promise of Satan being judged, I think. It contains also the promise of Christ falling into the ground to die like a grain of wheat - that many more grains like Him may sprout up.

Off hand I cannot recall any prominent discussion of eternal punishment in chapter 12. But I am open to correction.

Chapter 13 - Shows His undying love for His disciples. It shows also His preparing them to accept His coming redemptive death and instructions for them to love one another as He has loved them.

Christ displays utter humility and shows Himself a servant to all of them.
Off hand I cannot recall much talk about hell in chapter 13.

Chapter 14, 15, 16, 17 are on the Triune God, Christ indwelling, the Spirit's coming and abiding in Christ the True Vine.
I think judgment is mentioned.

Going on to chapters 18, 19, 20, 21 His death and resurrection are spoken about. Plus How He appeared a few times to train His disciples to live by His invisible presence.

No really prominent discussion of eternal punishment can I recall in those chapters. Judas as the son of perdition is mentioned in chapter 17. But most of 17 is occupied with Christ's mighty prayer for the fulfillment of God's eternal purpose to enliven and blend with man and dispense God into man and build man into God.

Not a whole lot of discription of punishment in those chapters really.
And the book ends with John saying that he wrote the things so that we may believe that Jesus is the Son of God and have divine life in Christ.

The point is that you have magnfied one aspect of the message, morphing it into God coercing through terror LOVE towards Himself.

With such an emphasis I would not feel I was being honest about the content of the Gospel of John. I think you feel comfortable rationalizing in the way you do. Perhaps Your regurgitating humanism requires make Jesus Christ and His Father a monster to justify unbelief.

The bulk material presented in the Gospel of John only has a portion dedicated to eternal separation from God under His just wrath.

I am not trying to proselytise you. I am just responding to those parts of your ideology that I find utterly grotesque which you air here in this public arena.

Yes, I know. You are innocent of wanting to preach anything.

Your caricature is grotesque in that I have demonstrated SO MUCH emphasis in the Gospel on the high quality of life in Christ. While the result of unbelief is indeed spoken to, the proportion you explode it to, attempting to show God as coercing LOVE from threats of torture, is your own grotesque exaggeration.

Look at the percentage of the material in John which seeks to manifest other angles to God's salvation. I see no coercion or extracting LOVE by THREATS.

Originally posted by sonship

Just because you trot out your codified superstitions here day in day out does not mean anyone has any obligation to try to emulate you or offer counter-superstitions. I am not a regurgitating religionist.

Hmm. I see.
Are you a regurgitating secular humanist ?
You come off as that and with complaint that the life of God and Christ e ...[text shortened]... ks to manifest other angles to God's salvation. I see no coercion or extracting LOVE by THREATS.

Originally posted by sonship
Hmm. I see.
Are you a regurgitating secular humanist ?
You come off as that and with complaint that the life of God and Christ exemplifies the "depraved" yet offer nothing and no one else as a superior example of dignity.

I think you are erecting out of proportion a kind of warped obsession with the matter in order to portray the Gospel as
"Love Me or Be Tortured" message.

I would not feel I was being honest if I tempted to morph the whole New Testament into this caricature. The subject of judgment is there in the NT but there is no reason to obsess that no other angle of the Gospel is as powerfully presented.

Take John's Gospel of 21 chapters:

Chapter 1 - Plenty mention of Christ's glory and finding life in Him, finding Light in Him. No mention of eternal punishment.

Chapter 2 - Christ came to turn death into life. The enjoyment of the world runs out. First the good comes and then the poor and vastly inferior. Christ saves the best quality of enjoyment after the world's poor substitutes have sadly run out.

No mention of eternal punishment I can see in chapter 2.

Chapter 3 - Here Christ speaks of being reborn and the world "perish" is used. It is accurate to say chapter 3 does say something about the wrath of God.

Chapter 4 . Here is a story about a woman who was a sinner, not stressing so much her "badness". But rather what is emphasized is her utter thirst, her unquenched longing for happiness.

No mention of eternal damnation in chapter 4 I recall.

Chapter 5 - Here's a hungry crowd that wants to force Jesus to be a king. He feeds them. But He refuses to be forced to be their king. Judgment is mentioned in chapter 5.

Chapter 6 - Christ comes down to feed man's abject HUNGER for life. No mention of hell as far as I recall in chapter 6.

[b]Chapter 7 - Here again is an emphasis on the "thirst" of man for life. We believe in Christ that we may come unto Him and "drink".

No mention of eternal damnation I recall in chapter 7 either.
Someone correct me if I err.

Chapter 8 - Christ convicts the consciences of the religious and self righteous mob. He argues that He is the I AM- the Old Testament God now incarnate as a man.

I don't readily recall a mention of damnation in chapter 8.
Someone can double check me as I do this essentially by memory.

Chapter 9 - This is a chapter about spiritual blindness. Christ comes to heal spiritual blindness. The religionists are offended and throw the healed one out of the synagogue for being born blind but being HEALED to see by the Son of God.

Cannot recall much talk of hell fire in chapter 9.

Chapter 10 - Christ is the Good Shepherd. No one can pluck the sheep out of His hand of power and the Father's hand of love. He is the pasture too. He is the gate to the pasture as well. Christ, the Wonderful One is the Shepherd, the Pasture, the Gate of the sheep. He comes to give LIFE and to give it abundantly.

Not much talk of eternal fire in chapter 10.

Chapter 11 - Christ is the resurrection and the life. Not only does He cure spiritual death. He is the answer for actual physical death as well. The man Lazarus is raised after four days of being dead.

I have to hunt for any talk of hell fire in chapter 11 too. Cannot recall any discussion there of eternal punishment.

So far I think you are morphing the Gospel into a caricature which has ONLY one angle. This represents more a warped myopic criticism than the real nature of the Gospel of John.

Chapter 12 - Has the promise of Satan being judged, I think. It contains also the promise of Christ falling into the ground to die like a grain of wheat - that many more grains like Him may sprout up.

Off hand I cannot recall any prominent discussion of eternal punishment in chapter 12. But I am open to correction.

Chapter 13 - Shows His undying love for His disciples. It shows also His preparing them to accept His coming redemptive death and instructions for them to love one another as He has loved them.

Christ displays utter humility and shows Himself a servant to all of them.
Off hand I cannot recall much talk about hell in chapter 13.

Chapter 14, 15, 16, 17 are on the Triune God, Christ indwelling, the Spirit's coming and abiding in Christ the True Vine.
I think judgment is mentioned.

Going on to chapters 18, 19, 20, 21 His death and resurrection are spoken about. Plus How He appeared a few times to train His disciples to live by His invisible presence.

No really prominent discussion of eternal punishment can I recall in those chapters. Judas as the son of perdition is mentioned in chapter 17. But most of 17 is occupied with Christ's mighty prayer for the fulfillment of God's eternal purpose to enliven and blend with man and dispense God into man and build man into God.

Not a whole lot of discription of punishment in those chapters really.
And the book ends with John saying that he wrote the things so that we may believe that Jesus is the Son of God and have divine life in Christ.

The point is that you have magnfied one aspect of the message, morphing it into God coercing through terror LOVE towards Himself.

With such an emphasis I would not feel I was being honest about the content of the Gospel of John. I think you feel comfortable rationalizing in the way you do. Perhaps Your regurgitating humanism requires make Jesus Christ and His Father a monster to justify unbelief.

The bulk material presented in the Gospel of John only has a portion dedicated to eternal separation from God under His just wrath.

I am not trying to proselytise you. I am just responding to those parts of your ideology that I find utterly grotesque which you air here in this public arena.

Yes, I know. You are innocent of wanting to preach anything.

Your caricature is grotesque in that I have demonstrated SO MUCH emphasis in the Gospel on the high quality of life in Christ. While the result of unbelief is indeed spoken to, the proportion you explode it to, attempting to show God as coercing LOVE from threats of torture, is your own grotesque exaggeration.

Look at the percentage of the material in John which seeks to manifest other angles to God's salvation. I see no coercion or extracting LOVE by THREATS.

More hair dryer mode. If the "eternal torture" threat is part of your ghastly ideology then it is part of your ghastly ideology. It matters not one whit that you can find parts of the Bible where it's not mentioned.

Originally posted by josephw
To you it's just an ideology, one that you can neither verify nor deny because you can offer no other alternative, and because you really don't know whether it is true or not.

All you can do is misrepresent in a negative light a "God figure" you don't believe exists.

Upon what authority do you call to offer an alternative "God figure" that doesn't exac ...[text shortened]...
And unless you can come up with a greater authority than God's Word you may as well give it up.

May as well give what up?

Originally posted by FMF
Originally posted by sonship
[b]Hmm. I see.
Are you a regurgitating secular humanist ?
You come off as that and with complaint that the life of God and Christ exemplifies the "depraved" yet offer nothing and no one else as a superior example of dignity.

I think you are erecting out of proportion a kind of warped obsession with the matter in ord ...[text shortened]... ideology. It matters not one whit that you can find parts of the Bible where it's not mentioned.

More hair dryer mode. If the "eternal torture" threat is part of your ghastly ideology then it is part of your ghastly ideology. It matters not one whit that you can find parts of the Bible where it's not mentioned.

It is not simply that it is not mentioned but that incentives of many kinds are presented as pointedly.

I have no idea what "hair dryer mode" means.

As for the lost, it is probably far better that they be occupied with their own suffering to the point that they cannot further their crimes upon each other.

I do see some wisdom of God that the unreconciled rebel against God be too preoccupied with his punishment that he cannot further sin against the others in that place of their congregating.

Originally posted by sonship
It is not simply that it is not mentioned but that incentives of many kinds are presented as pointedly.

I have no idea what "hair dryer mode" means.

As for the lost, it is probably far better that they be occupied with their own suffering to the point that they cannot further their crimes upon each other.

I do see some wisdom of God that the ...[text shortened]... is punishment that he cannot further sin against the others in that place of their congregating.

You just cannot bring yourself to address the sheer depravity of an ideology in which there is built-in extortion of love and belief with threats of unimaginable cruelty and violence. The reason you make no convincing attempt to explain it is because it's so far-fetched. It's the human imagination at its most macabre and gruesome.