RHP Spirituality Forum Gym

Originally posted by FMF

You just cannot bring yourself to address the sheer depravity of an ideology in which there is built-in extortion of love and belief with threats of unimaginable cruelty and violence.

I just cannot bring myself to accept your strawman argument ?
I guess not.

Give me two of your most striking Bible passages which demonstrate a "built in" extortion of "Love Me or be Tortured" motif.

I want to see a clear contrast that LOVE FOR GOD is extorted by the THREAT of Torture. Give me your two most clear and striking Bible passages demonstrating that.

The reason you make no convincing attempt to explain it is because it's so far-fetched. It's the human imagination at its most macabre and gruesome.

You make no convincing argument that there could not be a most evil act from a creature of God which could be accompanied by a most extreme retribution.

In short your philosophy is we should be able to reject the highest source of righteousness and no consequence of note be the result. This sounds like someone who never graduated from Barney the Dinosaur in his conception of a final authoritative figure.

Anyway, I expect your very next post to clearly demonstrate an extortion motif - "Love Me or Else Be Tortured" line. I may even help you to find some arguable candidates.

But first why not let you do your own homework on it since you're the one so adamant that that's a teaching in the Bible.

Originally posted by sonship

You just cannot bring yourself to address the sheer depravity of an ideology in which there is built-in extortion of love and belief with threats of unimaginable cruelty and violence.

I just cannot bring myself to accept your strawman argument ?
I guess not.

Give me two of your most striking Bible passages which demonstrate a " ...[text shortened]... do your own homework on it since you're the one so adamant that that's a teaching in the Bible.

Are you suggesting that those who do not love God will NOT experience eternal suffering?

Originally posted by divegeester

Are you suggesting that those who do not love God will NOT experience eternal suffering?

The bulk of the passages I can think of off hand speak of the need to believe in the Son of God.

With much more labor I might be able to locate the precious few passages which contrast the love of God with consequence of damnation for failure to love God.

How much did most of us "love" Jesus on the day believed into Him? Probably we didn't love Him that much. And for a long time afterwards probably most of us didn't "love" the Lord that much.

But we believed into Him and were justified forever.

Let me re-examine your question. I tend to drift sometimes.

Are you suggesting that those who do not love God will NOT experience eternal suffering?

I think the matter of loving God is a likely a growing matter which will encrease more and more perhaps infinitely. Eternity is a long time. God is probably infinitely lovable.

That's good news. He is also infinitely righteous, holy, and just.

So I am not sure how to answer your question. I think after a million years of being in the New Jerusalem we may look back and say "We thought we loved God back then. But that is nothing to how we love Him now."

On a relative basis, we might consider the past love as not very much compared to the present level of love.

Some days I do not feel I love God as much. At those times a proclaim His undying love for me. He loved me. He loves me. This standing on that truth then softens my heart. And pretty soon my cold heart is saying "Yes Lord. And I in turn do love you also."

Originally posted by sonship
In short your philosophy is we should be able to reject the highest source of righteousness and no consequence of note be the result. This sounds like someone who never graduated from Barney the Dinosaur in his conception of a final authoritative figure.

I do not believe any of your claims that we are talking about "the highest source of righteousness". What I am engaging here is your imagination and the conjuring up of an "authoritative figure" based on superstition. I think, on some level, you are aware of this ~ hence your pouting reference to Barney the Dinosaur.

Originally posted by sonship
But first why not let you do your own homework on it since you're the one so adamant that that's a teaching in the Bible.

If the "eternal torture" ideology is not "teaching in the Bible" then just come out and say so.

Originally posted by sonship
I want to see a clear contrast that LOVE FOR GOD is extorted by the THREAT of Torture. Give me your two most clear and striking Bible passages demonstrating that.

If the notion of "eternal torture" is not Biblical then why don't you just say so?

Originally posted by sonship
To make an unbeliever consider believing I let them watch the way I live and I refer them to Jesus Christ in the Bible.

You let us watch the way you live? Mmm. It's interesting that you, of all people, should find yourself lashing out at others for being "self-righteous".

Originally posted by josephw
To you it's just an ideology, one that you can neither verify nor deny because you can offer no other alternative, and because you really don't know whether it is true or not.

All you can do is misrepresent in a negative light a "God figure" you don't believe exists.

Upon what authority do you call to offer an alternative "God figure" that doesn't exac ...[text shortened]...
And unless you can come up with a greater authority than God's Word you may as well give it up.

I'm a greater authority than 'god'.

Heck we should all be the masters of our destinies and learn to think for ourselves.
That's what growing up means to me (well, at least part of it)

Originally posted by sonship

Are you suggesting that those who do not love God will NOT experience eternal suffering?

The bulk of the passages I can think of off hand speak of the need to believe in the Son of God.

With much more labor I might be able to locate the precious few passages which contrast the love of God with consequence of damnation for failure ...[text shortened]... ns my heart. And pretty soon my cold heart is saying "Yes Lord. And I in turn do love you also."

sonship "I tend to drift sometimes" ... lol

Originally posted by karoly aczel
sonship "I tend to drift sometimes" ... lol

It's a coping mechanism and a means of deflection.

Originally posted by sonship
...So I am not sure how to answer your question.

You don't know?!

Don't you agree that if you are going to propagate a doctrine of eternal suffering in a lake of fire, then the propagator should at least have a clear definition of who will and who won't be in it?

"Jesus wept." (John 11:35)

Why?

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Question: Is sin the issue at the Great White Throne Judgment when all unbelievers will be indicted?"

But they wouldn't be there if they hadn't died in their sin.

"Answer: No. Sin will not be mentioned. God keeps two books: The Book of Life and The Book of Works."

Their "works" are of the flesh. It and they will be destroyed in the lake of fire.[/b]

"But they wouldn't be there if they hadn't died in their sin." Correct, Joe. They determined their own eternal destiny by choosing against rather than for the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. Sin, however, isn't the basis of condemnation.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"Jesus wept." (John 11:35)

Why?

I'm thinking because He was saddened by the depressed state of the affairs of the weakened human condition all around Him.

Jesus wasn't likely weeping for the same reason the folks around Him were weeping. After all Jesus knew He was going to raise Lazarus from the dead.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"But they wouldn't be there if they hadn't died in their sin." Correct, Joe. They determined their own eternal destiny by choosing against rather than for the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. Sin, however, isn't the basis of condemnation.

"Sin, however, isn't the basis of condemnation."

Please explain.