Originally posted by robbie carrobieI feel sorry for your delusions and the delusions of all the world's religions, duped to the last man and woman.
wow, bitter or what? narrow perspective, or what?
actually the crusades were not for another thousand years, and have nothing to do with Christian teaching. Paul is neither sexiest nor homophobic, he merely reiterates the example set by Christ as has been shown to you, without refutation, and as clearly advocated in Scripture as has been shown t ...[text shortened]... on any pretext, which also includes the life of the abortion doctor, his reckoning is with God.
2 edits
Originally posted by sonhousethere is nothing delusional about being a Christian, indeed, its beautiful, we have a quality of life free from so many issues that others face, we are free from materialism realising that it itself cannot produce happiness, we are free from hurtful ambition, the desire to be rich, and most of all we have hope that one day in the not too distant future the earth shall once again be a paradise, without war, famine, strife or the injustices which mar the present system. Mr Hamilton had the audacity to speak of realities, i just had to laugh.
I feel sorry for your delusions and the delusions of all the world's religions, duped to the last man and woman.
Originally posted by sonhouseChristians are not deluded more than any member of any other religion. It's the very nature of a religon to make people think that they, and they only, have the ultimate truth of everything, even if other religions claim exactly the same.
I feel sorry for your delusions and the delusions of all the world's religions, duped to the last man and woman.
3 edits
Originally posted by FabianFnasAren't you doing exactly the same as what you claim all religious people do ?
Christians are not deluded more than any member of any other religion. It's the very nature of a religon to make people think that they, and they only, have the ultimate truth of everything, even if other religions claim exactly the same.
Sure you are. Only you see the real situation. Everyone else whose religious doesn't.
You're in the real know. All religions are not.
Originally posted by jaywillOf course not. I often emphacize that I talk about *my* opinion, my *opinion*, nothing more, leving room for anyone else to have their opinion. If I can learn something from outher's opinons, then I have won something, and is a winner. Those who don't never wins, they are losers.
Aren't you doing exactly the same as what you claim all religious people do ?
Sure you are. Only [b]you see the real situation. Everyone else whose religious doesn't.
You're in the real know. All religions are not.[/b]
Fundamentalists, think they have the Truth on their hand, and strive to educate others to see the same Light that they do. Why wyould I do that? What good is it for me to make people to think exactly like me? I have nothing to gain in that. I would learn nothing.
That's my opinion. What's yours?
5 edits
==============================
Of course not. I often emphacize that I talk about *my* opinion, my *opinion*, nothing more, leving room for anyone else to have their opinion.
===============================
But I did not notice the "emphasis" on *your* opinion in this pronouncement:
"Christians are not deluded more than any member of any other religion. It's the very nature of a religon to make people think that they, and they only, have the ultimate truth of everything, even if other religions claim exactly the same. "
I only notice the dogmatism.
======================
Fundamentalists, think they have the Truth on their hand, and strive to educate others to see the same Light that they do.
========================
And you were not trying to educate others ?
You were not trying to get sonhouse and whoever else read your post to see the same Light are you see?
Namely - "Christians are not deluded more than any member of any other religion. It's the very nature of a religon to make people think that they, and they only, have the ultimate truth of everything, even if other religions claim exactly the same. "
No "Purer then Thou" tone in there ?
===========================
Why wyould I do that? What good is it for me to make people to think exactly like me? I have nothing to gain in that. I would learn nothing.
That's my opinion. What's yours?
===============================
My opinion is that you are mistaking yourself for the person you would like to be.
Go ahead and give your opinion. But you're not that much different from the Fundamentalist.
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillIn other words, everyone is in the same boat, exactly clueless. Not one person knows jack about affairs outside his or her own head, especially when it comes to a purported god.
[b]==============================
Of course not. I often emphacize that I talk about *my* opinion, my *opinion*, nothing more, leving room for anyone else to have their opinion.
===============================
But I did not notice the "emphasis" on *your* opinion in this pronouncement:
"Christians are not deluded more than any member of a d and give you opinion. But you're not that much different from the Fundamentalist.
As an agnostic, I cannot take the atheistic road and totally deny the existence of a god or gods, since there is no evidence I can see one is here. All I see is people spouting totally diametrically opposed views as to what the one true god is supposed to be.
I cannot imagine a single god allowing such utter bs to take hold in the world and all the deaths that religious wars demand. You can talk all you want about how much good the lower ranks do for people and I have seen that with my own eyes but the fact remains they do it because they think they are going to be rewarded for such good deeds in some purported heaven, living on after their own personal death.
I see that as just someone putting money in the bank, expecting the good deeds to be rewarded not for the fact that a good deed needs to be done on humanitarian grounds but because if I do this wonderful thing that costs me an arm and a leg, I will be rewarded after I die.
To me this is the most asssanine way of going about living I can think of. Once I saw a semi truck in Canada on its side with the driver jammed inside, the seats broken and pinning him down, he could not get out. Outside the wreck, a couple of dozen people standing around thumbs up their collective assses just staring at the truck. I saw that poor sap inside pinned down in a pretzel shape with the chairs on top of him.
I jumped up on the side of the truck, never having done anything like that before, surprised at just how large those semi's are when they are on their side, got up to the other door about 10 feet in the air, got my legs inside and broke out the window from the inside so glass would not hit the poor driver.
Then pulled off the seats pinning him down and he was able to slowly extricate himself from the truck. At no time did it ever occur to me I was doing this so I could get some kind of heavenly kudo, an attaboy for christ.
I did it because it needed to be done and the idiots standing around were acting like zombies. However, Jim Jones or Billy Graham in the same boat would have thought, I will get jesus points if I get this guy out of the truck. That is exactly what I rail against. A job needs to be done, frigging do the job, don't do the jesus loves me equation, I'll help the needy because god will love me for it. Pardon me while I barf.
A case in point: Doing what needs to be done without thinking 'jesus will love me for this':
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/12/16/ohio.police.vigiliante/index.html?hpt=T2
Originally posted by sonhouse================================
In other words, everyone is in the same boat, exactly clueless. Not one person knows jack about affairs outside his or her own head, especially when it comes to a purported god.
As an agnostic, I cannot take the atheistic road and totally deny the existence of a god or gods, since there is no evidence I can see one is here. All I see is people spouting ...[text shortened]... ves me equation, I'll help the needy because god will love me for it. Pardon me while I barf.
In other words, everyone is in the same boat, exactly clueless. Not one person knows jack about affairs outside his or her own head, especially when it comes to a purported god.
=============================
I believe that there is such a thing as truth, even true truth.
I think "tolerance" lies in the atttiude one shows who believe differently. That's where the rub is. No, my quip was NOT admission that no one knows "jack".
All truth is God's truth. And in different faiths there certainly is some overlap. Judiasm, the Christian faith, and Islam all say there is one God. So as far as that is concerned there is "truth" shared by the three different faiths.
The Buddhist says that the world is an illusion. Well, there is SOME truth to the idea that just our five senses does not convey what is ultimately the REAL reality. So though the words I choose are a bit different, I would say that Buddhism has its hands on some truth.
The book of Ecclesiates speaks of the world in terms of "Vanity of vanities. All is vanity"
That is not TOO much different from the Buddhist saying that the world is an illusion. So there is some sharing or overlap of truth between the Bible and Buddhist teaching in that area.
================================
As an agnostic, I cannot take the atheistic road and totally deny the existence of a god or gods, since there is no evidence I can see one is here. All I see is people spouting totally diametrically opposed views as to what the one true god is supposed to be.
================================
Though there may be some overlap of truth or some sharing of true concepts, both Buddhism and the Gospel of Christ cannot both be totally true. You are right. In that sense one or the other has to have it wrong.
But to me, a big advance was moving from just believing that there is a God to having fellowship and communion with God.
One is purely objective. And I don't think one should stop there. One should not stop just arriving at believing there is a God. One should move from there to being able to loving communion with the heavenly Father in an intimate and personal way.
To be on speaking terms with "Daddy", with "My Abba Father", I think that is where one should head. But to believe that God IS, is indeed a start. I don't think a person should STOP there.
What good is that ?
================================
I cannot imagine a single god allowing such utter bs to take hold in the world and all the deaths that religious wars demand.
================================
If you want to talk about pure body count, I think atheistic ideologies have it all over religion, especially in the 20th Century.
Who killed more ? I don't think any religion can boast of more body count then the atheistic infused ideologoes of Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, and Hitler.
But notice, you are jumping from the plausibility of God existing to the bad things done by religion. If I want to read about the bad things done by religion I can start with Cain, Saul, Korah, the persecution of the prophets, the persecution of Christ done by the Sanhedrin.
The Bible itself candidly records the errors of religion even from the book of Genesis. Bad religion does not prove the non-existence of God.
====================================
You can talk all you want about how much good the lower ranks do for people and I have seen that with my own eyes but the fact remains they do it because they think they are going to be rewarded for such good deeds in some purported heaven, living on after their own personal death.
=======================================
Maybe I have seen more hypocrisy then you have.
Early in my Christian life I asked God to lead me to Christians who could HELP my faith. I was never one to keep my eye out for those who HURT my faith. I did not hunt for people who gave me reasons to doubt.
I asked God to lead me to followers of Jesus who gave me reasons to continue rather than reasons to doubt. I have to say that He was faithful to answer that prayer.
So the "religious hypocrits" mantra has never turned me away from following what I know to be the truth.
============================
I see that as just someone putting money in the bank, expecting the good deeds to be rewarded not for the fact that a good deed needs to be done on humanitarian grounds but because if I do this wonderful thing that costs me an arm and a leg, I will be rewarded after I die.
====================================
I have seen such things too. The principle of the kingdom people is to be strict towards oneself and merciful and accomodating with others.
You see, as a Bible reader I don't think anyone is getting away with anything. So I expect a day of accounting of my Christian life before Christ. I expect that just because I am forever forgiven does NOT mean that God cannot deal with my defects until I am conformed to the image of Christ.
You see sonhouse, when you grasp that essential fact that no one is getting away with ANYTHING, you have confidence to keep on with Jesus.
For even the Christian forgiveness and eternal life are never going to be an excuse for failing to be sanctified. God has many ways to deal with His own people. He is very resourceful.
So when you see these hypocritical things, and if they ARE indeed saved Christians (for they may NOT be), but if they are, do not be troubled. For the New Testament shows that no one is getting away with anything so easily.
God is not a dummy. And cheap grace will not absolve the disciple of discipline.
And besides, if you are so clear HOW a Christian SHOULD act, Jesus may ask YOU " If you knew so much about how one SHOULD behave, Why did you not do so as My follower ?"
In other words. Because you know such things, does that make you one bit better ?
This is merely called "the knowledge of good and evil", something we sinners are all very proud of having.
===============================
To me this is the most asssanine way of going about living I can think of. Once I saw a semi truck in Canada on its side with the driver jammed inside, the seats broken and pinning him down, he could not get out. Outside the wreck, a couple of dozen people standing around thumbs up their collective assses just staring at the truck. I saw that poor sap inside pinned down in a pretzel shape with the chairs on top of him.
I jumped up on the side of the truck, never having done anything like that before, surprised at just how large those semi's are when they are on their side, got up to the other door about 10 feet in the air, got my legs inside and broke out the window from the inside so glass would not hit the poor driver.
===================================
Good for you. You were a brave man there.
=======================
Then pulled off the seats pinning him down and he was able to slowly extricate himself from the truck. At no time did it ever occur to me I was doing this so I could get some kind of heavenly kudo, an attaboy for christ.
=============================
You did a commendable thing. You listened to your God created human conscience and did what you needed to do.
You did it not for any reward except the good feeling of knowing that you did what was true and right to do.
I thank God that you were there to help the man. But I think it would be wrong to thing "Because I did this, therefore I do not need the Lord and Savior Jesus."
I would even turn my heart to thank God that at that moment the conscience He created within me rose up and I acted against apathy or fear.
You are comparing yourself with the other people in the crowd. But we have all been compared to the glory and perfection of Christ. And we still are in need of the Savior's redemption.
Just consider. Often when a man does a good deed, he feels that gives him license to commit a few sins over here. "I am so good, as compared to these other people, that I deserve a little enjoyment of sinning over here."
You see, though you were brave in that situation, and I commend you, still the word of God says "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked."
We are still all guilty sinners before God and need the salvation of Christ's redemption - brave sinners, cowardly sinners alike.
===================================
I did it because it needed to be done and the idiots standing around were acting like zombies.
===================================
You are comparing yourself with others in the crowd. But God's law still has you in need of forgiveness. And compared to His Son you still are not ready to answer to the perfect holiness of God for your sins.
If you take a hundred jars of all different shapes and cast them down from the 10th story window, they will ALL break.
Some are broken in 100 pieces. Some are broken in 50 pieces. Some are broken in 10 pieces. Maybe some are broken in only 2 or 3 pieces. But they are ALL BROKEN."
This is the situation of man since the Fall. Those jars broken in only 5 pieces may baost "At least I am not as broken as this other jar. That jar is broken in 30 pieces. I am only broken in 5 nice pieces."
It will not work. They are all fallen and broken. And we sinners are all fallen short of the glory of God and are all guilty.
The good news is that God has made provision for our forgiveness and healing through One who is not only not broken at all, but PERFECTION - the Son of God.
[b]============================
However, Jim Jones or Billy Graham in the same boat would have thought, I will get jesus points if I get this guy out of the truck. That is exactly what I rail...
1 edit
I did it because it needed to be done and the idiots standing around were acting like zombies.
===================================
You are comparing yourself with others in the crowd. But God's law still has you in need of forgiveness. And compared to His Son you still are not ready to answer to the perfect holiness of God for your sins.
Forgiveness or not, I saw fuel dripping down the side of the truck and knew it would not take a whole lot for a fire to start and that person incinderated yet nobody did anything. They may need your god's forgiveness but there is no excuse for them doing nothing and all the forgiveness in the world would not have helped that hapless driver if it had caught fire.
They all saw the same thing I saw but they were standing around with their thumbs up their asss. That is not forgivable to me. It's like seeing a girl being raped in NYC, a common event, and everyone just walks by.
I can say without a doubt, I would grab the nearest 2 by 4 and whack the bastard unconscious but that is just me. I don't understand why there are so many asssholes in the world who just let bad things happen when they could just step in and help.
The main thing about me and your god is I have no thoughts of some cosmic reward, I see something wrong and I jump in with both feet. Always have and always will.
1 edit
Originally posted by sonhouse===================================
I did it because it needed to be done and the idiots standing around were acting like zombies.
===================================
You are comparing yourself with others in the crowd. But God's law still has you in need of forgiveness. And compared to His Son you still are not ready to answer to the perfect holiness of God for your sins.
Forgivene mic reward, I see something wrong and I jump in with both feet. Always have and always will.
Forgiveness or not, I saw fuel dripping down the side of the truck and knew it would not take a whole lot for a fire to start and that person incinderated yet nobody did anything. They may need your god's forgiveness but there is no excuse for them doing nothing and all the forgiveness in the world would not have helped that hapless driver if it had caught fire.
=====================================
Your situation is not unlike that hapless driver. You too are in need of rescue. You just don't know it.
================================
They all saw the same thing I saw but they were standing around with their thumbs up their asss. That is not forgivable to me. It's like seeing a girl being raped in NYC, a common event, and everyone just walks by.
=================================
So you feel that this one act will justify you at the last judgment ?
==============================
I can say without a doubt, I would grab the nearest 2 by 4 and whack the bastard unconscious but that is just me. I don't understand why there are so many asssholes in the world who just let bad things happen when they could just step in and help.
The main thing about me and your god is I have no thoughts of some cosmic reward, I see something wrong and I jump in with both feet. Always have and always will.
============================
You are cursing at others in a hope to make your argument more forceful.
You may have done a noble act but you are not at all humble about it. In fact you are very self righteous about it, denying God as "your god" with contempt and cursing insults at others.
The more you talk about your deed it seems the uglier your attitude seems to get.
So you feel that this one act will justify you at the last judgment ?
The whole point of my narrative is I feel no such thing, there will, I am sure as a human can be, going to be some 'final judgement' so I feel no such imperative.
I may seem hostile to the inaction of others facing situations like I described that happens all the time in NYC and a lot of other places, it's my frustration at the inability of people, and I am sure a lot of them are god fearing christians or muslims, allow such atrocities to go by and they just walk away. It engenders feelings of rage when I hear about such non activity. They just don't want to get involved, fear of their own safety, who am I to help a total stranger, they may be married for all I know, that kind of thinking drives me up the wall.
1 edit
Originally posted by sonhouse...I can say without a doubt, I would grab the nearest 2 by 4 and whack the bastard unconscious but that is just me. I don't understand why there are so many asssholes in the world who just let bad things happen when they could just step in and help...
I did it because it needed to be done and the idiots standing around were acting like zombies.
===================================
You are comparing yourself with others in the crowd. But God's law still has you in need of forgiveness. And compared to His Son you still are not ready to answer to the perfect holiness of God for your sins.
Forgivene mic reward, I see something wrong and I jump in with both feet. Always have and always will.
I think it comes down to a person's bravery, the relationship between theirself and victim, and conditioning in most cases (and how numerous the other people present). As for what people do when they see a burning truck it may well be fear that freezes them to the spot (and the battle with their conscience is perhaps what stops them from getting the hell out of there), and I imagine I too (as an unashamed coward primed for legging it if someone starts trouble) would do little more than panic, call the emergency services, and rely on someone else braver than me to rescue the guy.
Originally posted by AgergWell in my case I wasn't quite that brave, the truck had not started burning, just dripping fuel. I just thought there was a window of time in which someone could help, that was the only thing going through my mind. After I got the poor guy out, we did not stick around for kudo's and the people watching didn't even react one way or another. We just left, knowing the guy was more or less ok and wouldn't burn to death. It was a surreal situation.
[b]...I can say without a doubt, I would grab the nearest 2 by 4 and whack the bastard unconscious but that is just me. I don't understand why there are so many asssholes in the world who just let bad things happen when they could just step in and help...
I think it comes down to a person's bravery, the relationship between theirself and victim, and c ...[text shortened]... panic, call the emergency services, and rely on someone else braver than me to rescue the guy.[/b]
Originally posted by sonhouse=========================================
So you feel that this one act will justify you at the last judgment ?
The whole point of my narrative is I feel no such thing, there will, I am sure as a human can be, going to be some 'final judgement' so I feel no such imperative.
I may seem hostile to the inaction of others facing situations like I described that happens all the time in NYC and a ...[text shortened]... l stranger, they may be married for all I know, that kind of thinking drives me up the wall.
The whole point of my narrative is I feel no such thing, there will, I am sure as a human can be, going to be some 'final judgement' so I feel no such imperative.
==============================
If there is no final judgement timewise, do you believe there is final judgment in any sense ?
There is no accounting ?
On what basis do you judge their behavior bad as opposed to your good behavior?
Originally posted by jaywillWhat final judgement was there for the dinosaurs? Why do you think there is a 'final judgement'? Why WOULD there be a judgement at all? Why do you think any being in the universe would think us so valuable on the cosmic scale of things that we would be worth having some kind of judgement? The entire concept is so far beyond my ken it goes beyond reason and into fairyland.
[b]=========================================
The whole point of my narrative is I feel no such thing, there will, I am sure as a human can be, going to be some 'final judgement' so I feel no such imperative.
==============================
If there is no final judgement timewise, do you believe there is final judgment in any sense ?
There i ...[text shortened]... unting ?
On what basis do you judge their behavior bad as opposed to your good behavior?[/b]
Religious people IMO are making a huge arrogant mistake when they think themselves so important to some so far unrevealed god this god would let incredibly bad things happen when if it exists, could just come down and say here is how it is mr Housain, leave those villagers alone. The thing about that is your supposed infinitely powerful god according to your eyes knew exactly the position of every atom in the universe and what happens to every atom as they became rocks, bacteria, multicells, vertebrates, dinosaurs, primates, humans, end of the world, etc.
Your supposed god knew every event from start to finish so how can you
rationalize the need for such a god to have a 'judgement' when this god knew the income, the outcome and all parts in between?
This whole concept flies so far from reason I can't even imagine how such a philosophical monstrosity could have ever been constructed by men, and you have to know, the very philosophical monstrosity of such a construction could only have been made by men not some god. Unless of course your god is by any measure you could name, insane. That would explain a lot.