Originally posted by RJHindsFaith without works is dead. You cannot claim to be alive in Christ and serve man. If you serve Christ you will do good works. Its not an option or if you feel like it. Good works is part of the Christian life. Lack of good works is proof that there is no faith in Christ. The faith of that person is not with in his heart but only through his mouth. Lipservice and hypocracy are not qualities that will be rewarded.
All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_work_and_no_play_makes_Jack_a_dull_boy
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/everybody-is-stupid-except-you/201209/what-does-all-work-and-no-play-make-jack
The Instructor
Originally posted by Rajk999Works without faith is dead too. We are only saved by His grace and no amount of works will merit salvation. What works did the thief being crucified with Jesus do that was so good that Jesus said to him that he would be in paradise?
Faith without works is dead. You cannot claim to be alive in Christ and serve man. If you serve Christ you will do good works. Its not an option or if you feel like it. Good works is part of the Christian life. Lack of good works is proof that there is no faith in Christ. The faith of that person is not with in his heart but only through his mouth. Lipservice and hypocracy are not qualities that will be rewarded.
The Instructor
Originally posted by RJHindsAre you arguing with yourself Mr Hinds?
Works without faith is dead too. We are only saved by His grace and no amount of works will merit salvation. What works did the thief being crucified with Jesus do that was so good that Jesus said to him that he would be in paradise?
The Instructor
Did I not already agree that you must have faith as well?
I said it clearly BOTH FAITH AND WORKS ARE NECESSARY
And this accords with ALL of Bible doctrine
You are the one that is claiming that Faith ALONE is necessary.
Please read and understand the post before replying.
As for the thief on the cross .. the same rule applies .. and there are two basic ones which are applicable here:
- Christ knows the heart of man and obviously he was a good man.
- All followers of Christ must continue on in good works and righteousness after believing and accepting Christ.
The fact that the thief on the cross only had a few hours to serve Christ does not mean that the rest of humanity must serve Christ for a few hours as well.
Originally posted by Rajk999I am only stating what I believe the Holy Bible states. I not sure that we do not really agree. It is probably like Paul and James. You and James emphasize doing good works and Paul and myself are emphasizing faith and the grace of God.
Are you arguing with yourself Mr Hinds?
Did I not already agree that you must have faith as well?
I said it clearly BOTH FAITH AND WORKS ARE NECESSARY
And this accords with ALL of Bible doctrine
You are the one that is claiming that Faith ALONE is necessary.
Please read and understand the post before replying.
As for the thief on the cross .. t ...[text shortened]... serve Christ does not mean that the rest of humanity must serve Christ for a few hours as well.
The Instructor
Originally posted by RJHindsYou are excluding what part of the teachings of Christ are about. That is a grave sin.
I am only stating what I believe the Holy Bible states. I not sure that we do not really agree. It is probably like Paul and James. You and James emphasize doing good works and Paul and myself are emphasizing faith and the grace of God.
The Instructor
You cannot claim to know Christ, love Christ, have faith in Christ, and want eternal life from Christ and then exclude the love and charity and good works which He preached so much about.
Originally posted by Rajk999You accuse me and others of sin, spouting things that are not true. I can
Did you and KellyJ actually read that whole chapter Jaywill? It is this same foolish idiotic grabbing of a few sentences from a whole chapter that makes your doctrine false.
Please read the whole Chapter of Phil 3.
This what you people do all the time. You latch on to one phrase in Romans that says accept Christ with your mouth and you will be saved a ...[text shortened]... D HAS PREPARED FOR MAN, is filthy rags. Righteousness is still essential however filthy it is.
think of one other who does the same type of thing! I have never once ever
said that we should not be living our lives as best we can to walk worthy of
the Lord Jesus Christ, yet you have accused me of saying like things as far
back as I can remember here. I have maintained that only Jesus makes us
worthy our righteousness should rest in Him alone.
You keep mouthing about works, I have always agreed we will be doing
good works, where we differ is you accuse me of sin, and you push works
to be worthy of God's grace.
So feel free earn God's grace, that will be a bill you will never be able to
pay off. You want to throw Jesus' grace in His face saying it was not enough
for you go a head. I'm telling you God's free gift is our righteousness and
through Him we are saved where we will then do good works, not to be
worthy, but to obey our Lord God because He is worthy.
Kelly
Originally posted by Rajk999Have you gave food and drink to all the hungry and thirsty you have ever come across? Have you taken every stranger you ever came in contact in to your house? Have you provide clothing to all that needed clothes that you know? Have you visited every prisoner or sick person that you know? If not then aren't you in danger of eternal punishment according to Jesus. Do you want to be judged by those standards? Or perhaps you would settle for grace instead.
You are excluding what part of the teachings of Christ are about. That is a grave sin.
You cannot claim to know Christ, love Christ, have faith in Christ, and want eternal life from Christ and then exclude the love and charity and good works which He preached so much about.
The Instructor
Originally posted by RJHindsFirst if you can give some proof from the Bible where Christ said those things then we can discuss further.
Have you gave food and drink to all the hungry and thirsty you have ever come across? Have you taken every stranger you ever came in contact in to your house? Have you provide clothing to all that needed clothes that you know? Have you visited every prisoner or sick person that you know? If not then aren't you in danger of eternal punishment according to ...[text shortened]... be judged by those standards? Or perhaps you would settle for grace instead.
The Instructor
More importantly I don't not discuss myself and my own activities on an internet chat site. I would leave that to others. Neither have I ever asked anyone what they do. I think its disrespecting the privacy of others.
We can discuss the issue generally as this is another misleading doctrine preached in churches. ie that if you cannot help all the world then you might as well not help any. I cannot see any self-respecting Christian believing that nonsense.
Finally there is no option to be either:
- Saved by Grace or
- Saved by Works
All of those worthy to be in Gods Kingdom will be saved by Grace, and All are judged according to their works. Those who do good works will be rewarded with eternal life and those who do none will be cast into the lake of fire.
This is my last post to you unless you come up with some verses where Christ says that you have to help ALL .. they way you said it in your post.
Let the Bible answer:
Is anything more than faith needed in order to gain salvation?
Eph. 2:8, 9, RS: “By grace [“undeserved kindness,” NW] you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast.” (The entire provision for salvation is an expression of God’s undeserved kindness. There is no way that a descendant of Adam can gain salvation on his own, no matter how noble his works are. Salvation is a gift from God given to those who put faith in the sin-atoning value of the sacrifice of his Son.)
Heb. 5:9, RS: “He [Jesus] became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him.” (Italics added.) (Does this conflict with the statement that Christians are “saved through faith”? Not at all. Obedience simply demonstrates that their faith is genuine.)
Jas. 2:14, 26, RS: “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” (A person does not earn salvation by his works. But anyone who has genuine faith will have works to go with it—works of obedience to the commands of God and Christ, works that demonstrate his faith and love. Without such works, his faith is dead.)
Acts 16:30, 31, RS: “‘Men, what must I do to be saved?’ And they [Paul and Silas] said, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’” (If that man and his household truly believed, would they not act in harmony with their belief? Certainly.)
Originally posted by Rajk999I cant believe in him either
First if you can give some proof from the Bible where Christ said those things then we can discuss further.
More importantly I don't not discuss myself and my own activities on an internet chat site. I would leave that to others. Neither have I ever asked anyone what they do. I think its disrespecting the privacy of others.
We can discuss the issue gen ...[text shortened]... h some verses where Christ says that you have to help ALL .. they way you said it in your post.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhen one has to try to reason along those "what if questions" it shows a lot has been missed with just basic spiritual knowledge.
I cant believe in him either
Still relying on the "milk" and has not progressed to the "meat" of spiritual understandings.
"Always seeking but never finding".
Originally posted by galveston75Actually the "what if" questions, that you are so averse to asking yourself are in a far higher echelon of sophistication than blind adherence to some interpretation of the Bible without pause for question.
When one has to try to reason along those "what if questions" it shows a lot has been missed with just basic spiritual knowledge.
Still relying on the "milk" and has not progressed to the "meat" of spiritual understandings.
"Always seeking but never finding".
7 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
I dont go around telling anyone about myself pal. I leave that for arrogant like yourself to engage in. You tell the world that you do this that and the other, read this that and the other, experience this that and the other. That you are so well read. Those are activities of the small minded.
You know nothing about me and what I do. All I do is say what ...[text shortened]... hrist and Apostles lacked the ability to express themselves. They dont need your interpretation.
I dont go around telling anyone about myself pal.
You tell us a great deal about yourself unintentionally.
I leave that for arrogant like yourself to engage in.
Case in point with this accusation, you tell us about yourself.
You love to be an accuser of the brethren.
You tell the world that you do this that and the other, read this that and the other, experience this that and the other. That you are so well read. Those are activities of the small minded.
Ever read Second Corinthians ? Paul on occasion was forced to speak about his own experience. He felt like a fool to have to do so.
You know nothing about me and what I do.
You wear your heart on your sleeve. Of course we know something about you.
All I do is say what Christ says about eternal life. If that runs contrary to your doctrine then thats tough.
This kind of rhetorical flourish sounds good. But you just seemed not to understand Philippians chapter three too well.
And you insisted that I read the whole chapter which did nothing for your legalism.
As for Bible study etc .. the JWs have been at it for over 100 years. The Catholics for around 2000... and where are they .. close to Christ? Bible study and Bible interpretation does not help get closer to Christ. Here is how :
And your failure to comprehend the larger scope of Philippians chapter three in light of Kelly and I pointing out 3:8 was not terribly impressive.
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Follow Christ commandments and you will get closer to Christ.
So what ? Have I said anything contrary to that ?
Quote me where I discouraged anyone from following Christ and keeping His commandments.
I expect you to provide a quotation to the essence that I taught anyone NOT to follow Christ and NOT to keep His word or His commandments.
If you have no quotations then you are all bluster. And you would also be a false accuser. Being a false accuser is not following Christ. It is following the accuser of our brothers "who accuses them before our God day and night" (Rev. 12:10)
Your long posts remind me of politicians rambling on about foolishness and lies and that is all your doctrines are. Lies and deceit.
If you produce no definite quotation in which sonship or jaywill taught anyone NOT to follow Christ or keep His word or His commandments, then retract your false accusation that I teach that way.
If you don't produce or dpn't retract your accusation then the deceitful politics is coming from you.
Long posts also mean that you are not able to express yourself properly and worse having to constantly to explain means that you are not allowing the Bible to explain for itself. Do you think that Christ and Apostles lacked the ability to express themselves. They dont need your interpretation.
Paul said that the Christians can all prophesy one by one that all may learn and all be encouraged (1 Cor. 14:31) .
Paul also says "each one has ... an interpretation" (1 Cor. 14:26)
If you think you don't need any interpretation from another brother then speak for yourself. But as members of the Body the foot should not say to the hand "I have no need of you." Nor should the eye say to the foot "I have no need of you."
So if you boast that you have no need of another member of the Body of Christ maybe you are not in the Body of Christ or you are just too proud to receive the function of other members.
Now follow this post with your definite example in quotation of me teaching people NOT to follow Christ and NOT to keep His words or His commandments.
If you produce no example then show some integrity and retract your false accusation.