Originally posted by Rajk999What you're saying is true. The Bible teaches that one must perform up to the standard of righteousness as laid out by the Law of God.
Yes God REQUIRES. That means its not optional .. it is compulsory for anyone aiming for eternal life. How many times did Christ have to say that good works is absolutely necessary... too many to mention. Here is one from the OT :
[i]Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my t ...[text shortened]... ith tangible evidence of righteousness and good works in the form of love and charity and mercy.
What you missed was the part that tells you that it can't be done by the flesh.
That's why God tells us that flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
Jesus died on the cross a substitutionary death so that we can appropriate eternal life as a free gift of God's grace through faith in His blood.
The power of sin is broken for those who have trusted in what Jesus did on the cross on our behalf. The Law of Righteousness is fulfilled in us, and we are made as fit for heaven as God's own son.
No amount of good works will ever satisfy God's justice. Sin must be punished. Jesus was "made sin" for us so that God is justified in declaring us righteous in Christ.
Working one's way to heaven is religion.
Originally posted by josephwI don't understand all of that and it makes very little sense. Maybe you can explain a bit more with a few references.
What you're saying is true. The Bible teaches that one must perform up to the standard of righteousness as laid out by the Law of God.
That's why God tells us that flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
Jesus died on the cross a substitutionary death so that we can appropriate eternal life as a free gift of God's grace [b]through faith in Hi ...[text shortened]... in declaring us righteous in Christ.
Working one's way to heaven is religion.[/b]
Its like when Jaywill starts his 10 page analysis with a false assumption like .." .. now those who accept Christ are eternally saved then .." .. after that I stop reading.
In your case you are making false statement with :
What you missed was the part that tells you that it can't be done by the flesh.
A man [in the flesh] cannot be righteous? There must be thousands of men in the flesh who were righteous before God. Revelation alone speaks of 144,000 righteous from the 12 tribes of Israel alone.
The passage to which you refer is saying that the saints cannot enter the Kingdom with a human body of flesh and blood. It must be changed into a spirit body like that of Christ. It has nothing to do with what we do in this human body. Good works are righteousness is still necessary for success in the day of judgment. No good works = death. Read Matt 25 and all the other places Christ said that.
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Originally posted by KellyJayWe know nothing of each others personal lives. I do know of what you preach/teach others here on this forum. There is a greater responsibility for preachers to preach the doctrine of Christ or face the consequences. Preaching the wrong doctrine is a grave sin.
You accuse me and others of sin, spouting things that are not true. I can
think of one other who does the same type of thing! I have never once ever
said that we should not be living our lives as best we can to walk worthy of
the Lord Jesus Christ, yet you have accused me of saying like things as far
back as I can remember here. I have maintained that o hen do good works, not to be
worthy, but to obey our Lord God because He is worthy.
Kelly
Almost nothing you believe regarding eternal life and how to attain it comes from Christ.
That was my point about sin regarding you and others here like yourself who preach doctrines that are twisted and apostate.
How much of this below for example was teached by Christ.
If not by Christ then quote an Apostle's writing that contains this.
I already know ALL are saved by Grace .. but what you are missing is that
ALL are judged by works .. and those without works are cast into the lake of fire. Works are more important that you think .. Christ said that.
..So feel free earn God's grace, that will be a bill you will never be able to
pay off. You want to throw Jesus' grace in His face saying it was not enough for you go a head. I'm telling you God's free gift is our righteousness and through Him we are saved where we will then do good works, not to be worthy, but to obey our Lord God because He is worthy.
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Originally posted by Rajk999
Its like deja vu for God. The same hypocritical lip service worship conducted by modern day churches, God went through it already with the Jews. Its the same story.
Good works to the poor and needy and living righteously is what God requires. Not sin, and repentance, then more sin, then more repentance .. over and over.
Note also God does not listen t ...[text shortened]... ut to gain entry into the kingdom of God .. obedience is required. Disobedience and sin = death.
Nobody gets eternal life until they have proven themselves by their good works and their righteousness.So why did the Apostle John tell the brothers -
"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:12,13)
Is it the gift of God is eternal life ?
Or is it that the loan of God is eternal life ? Meaning that he has only loaned eternal life to the Christian but will take it BACK if he behaves badly.
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Originally posted by sonshipOf Course a man who claims to 'have the Son' or 'Faith' can be found unworthy in the day of judgment!! A man cannot continue in his sinful lifestyle and still get the reward of eternal life. Is it your opinion that Judas Iscariot will be found worthy to enter into the Kingdom?Nobody gets eternal life until they have proven themselves by their good works and their righteousness.So why did the Apostle John tell the brothers -
[b]"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to yo at he has only loaned eternal life to the Christian but will take it BACK if he behaves badly.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Luk 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
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Of Course a man who claims to 'have the Son' or 'Faith' can be found unworthy in the day of judgment!!
What does that have to do with losing the gift of eternal life?
God was displeased with Ananias and Saphira in Acts chapter 5.
He may further be displeased with them before the judgment seat of Christ. This doesn't mean that God withdrew the gift of eternal life.
A man cannot continue in his sinful lifestyle and still get the reward of eternal life.
Where does it say eternal life is a "reward" ?
The verse I quoted said "The GIFT of God is eternal life ."
A Christian can lose a reward and still be saved for eternal life -
"If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward; If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15)
Is it your opinion that Judas Iscariot will be found worthy to enter into the Kingdom?
Judas Isacariot was called "the son of perdition" (John 17:12). So I do not believe that he received the gift of eternal life.
I don't think we see Judas ever calling Jesus "Lord".
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
God apparently had no pleasure in Ananias and Saphira in Acts 5. It doesn't mean that He took back the GIFT of eternal life.
The Christians who lose a reward but are saved yet so as through fire in First Corinthian 3:13,14 we could say Christ will have displeasure. This also does not mean that He withdrew from them the gift of eternal life.
Luk 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
This does say not "not fit for the gift of eternal life." It says not fit for the kingdom of God. This too does not insist that God withdraws from such a backward looking Christian the gift of eternal life.
Try again or defend your point on one of these verses.
Originally posted by sonshipNot fit for the kingdom but they still get eternal life. ?
Of Course a man who claims to 'have the Son' or 'Faith' can be found unworthy in the day of judgment!!
What does that have to do with losing the gift of eternal life?
God was displeased with Ananias and Saphira in [b]Acts chapter 5.
He may further be displeased with them before the judgment seat of Christ. This doesn't mea ...[text shortened]... eternal life.
Try again or defend your point on one of these verses.[/b]
Whatever.
Originally posted by Rajk999The bottom line for my beliefs is that I'm only worthy through Jesus Christ,
We know nothing of each others personal lives. I do know of what you preach/teach others here on this forum. There is a greater responsibility for preachers to preach the doctrine of Christ or face the consequences. Preaching the wrong doctrine is a grave sin.
Almost nothing you believe regarding eternal life and how to attain it comes from Christ.
Th ...[text shortened]... ll then do good works, not to be worthy, but to obey our Lord God because He is worthy.[/i]
and after we are saved we will do works. You promote works as a means
to be saved to be worthy. I don't deny we will do works, we will do those
things God has for us as we follow Him. You find fault with that so be it.
Kelly
Originally posted by Rajk999Apathy ?
Not fit for the kingdom but they still get eternal life. ?
Whatever.
I think a serious Bible student would not simply say "Whatever".
If I were in your position I would enquire how it could be that one could be displeasing to Christ for the kingdom yet still possess the gift of eternal life.
By examining carefully, this is how truth is discovered.
Originally posted by sonshipI never said I was I bible student.
Apathy ?
I think a serious Bible student would not simply say "Whatever".
If I were in your position I would enquire how it could be that one could be displeasing to Christ for the kingdom yet still possess the [b]gift of eternal life.
By examining carefully, this is how truth is discovered.[/b]
I am a follower of the doctrine of Christ not witness Lee or Charles Russell.
'Whatever' means 'depart in peace with your false doctrine'.
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'Whatever' means 'depart in peace with your false doctrine'.
Where was the false doctrine ?
To say "Whatever" and fail to back up the accusation of teaching false doctrine is unethical. That is ungrounded slander not worthy of a Christian to commit.
Go exactly back to the post which caused you to write "Whatever" and point out false doctrine.
Originally posted by KellyJayRajk is right on this issue. No one is saved until they are given that gift and as long as we are human we are not saved yet because we are not worthy of this salvation because we still sin everyday.
The bottom line for my beliefs is that I'm only worthy through Jesus Christ,
and after we are saved we will do works. You promote works as a means
to be saved to be worthy. I don't deny we will do works, we will do those
things God has for us as we follow Him. You find fault with that so be it.
Kelly
A side point is Jesus was not even given immortality until he was resurrected. The reason for that is he had not proved himself faithful up to death yet, which he did do. But Jesus was a free moral agent and could have at any point in his life decided to sin.
There is a clue to how it works...
Originally posted by galveston75You are missing the best part of life and that is God now, all the time you
Rajk is right on this issue. No one is saved until they are given that gift and as long as we are human we are not saved yet because we are not worthy of this salvation because we still sin everyday.
A side point is Jesus was not even given immortality until he was resurrected. The reason for that is he had not proved himself faithful up to death yet, ...[text shortened]... ent and could have at any point in his life decided to sin.
There is a clue to how it works...
are trying to be worthy when its offered right now in Jesus Christ.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayHow can it be? Did you understand my comment about Jesus and how that applies to humans too?
You are missing the best part of life and that is God now, all the time you
are trying to be worthy when its offered right now in Jesus Christ.
Kelly
The scriptures says that believe in Jesus and "you will" be saved. It does not say "you are" saved. The salvation is for a future time just as it was for Jesus. Do you really feel you are worthy now as a human that can and will still sin when even Jesus was not given salvation until after he died and proved his absolute devotion to God? Do you really think that would be fair and wise for you or any sinful human to be given this salvation now?
The salvation Jesus was speaking of is only for those who go to heaven. Never is it said that humans on earth are saved in that sense ( immortality ) or ever will be. The reason is for what happened to Adam and Eve. First God never gave them immortality because they were not robots and he knew that they could sin if they ever chose to just as you and I will sin, and even Jesus could have chose to sin. Now if he had given them immortality, they would never have died, then would really be in trouble as none of God's laws would hold any weight.
Just think if satan had been given immortality before he turned on God?
So no. no one from earth is ever saved until they "might" go to heaven and only chosen by God to go there.
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Originally posted by galveston75Most Christian look at it this way:
How can it be? Did you understand my comment about Jesus and how that applies to humans too?
The scriptures says that believe in Jesus and "you will" be saved. It does not say "you are" saved. The salvation is for a future time just as it was for Jesus. Do you really feel you are worthy now as a human that can and will still sin when even Jesus was not m earth is ever saved until they "might" go to heaven and only chosen by God to go there.
The time that the statement was said was in the past and is talking about the future. Believe and you shall be saved. However, the Christian says to himself, I am in the future to that saying and I believe now, so I am saved now, because I already believe now.
The Instructor