Righteousness, Godliness & Good Works .. Not Lip Service

Originally posted by Rajk999
He says, "Do you think I want all these sacrifices you keep offering to me? I have had more than enough of the sheep you burn as sacrifices and of the fat of your fine animals.

I am tired of the blood of bulls and sheep and goats. Who asked you to bring me all this when you come to worship me? Who asked you to do all this tramping around in my Temple? ...[text shortened]... ou defy me, you are doomed to die. I, the LORD, have spoken." (Isaiah 1:11-20 GNB)

Ok. Where are we going with this?

Originally posted by josephw
Ok. Where are we going with this?

Its like deja vu for God. The same hypocritical lip service worship conducted by modern day churches, God went through it already with the Jews. Its the same story.

Good works to the poor and needy and living righteously is what God requires. Not sin, and repentance, then more sin, then more repentance .. over and over.

Note also God does not listen to the prayers of the evildoers .. contrary to what was expressed by some in another thread. God does not grant eternal life to evildoers .. again contrary to what many Christians believe here.

Nobody gets eternal life until they have proven themselves by their good works and their righteousness. Christ has washed all with his blood but to gain entry into the kingdom of God .. obedience is required. Disobedience and sin = death.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Its like deja vu for God. The same hypocritical lip service worship conducted by modern day churches, God went through it already with the Jews. Its the same story.

Good works to the poor and needy and living righteously is what God requires. Not sin, and repentance, then more sin, then more repentance .. over and over.

Note also God does not listen t ...[text shortened]... ut to gain entry into the kingdom of God .. obedience is required. Disobedience and sin = death.

"Good works to the poor and needy and living righteously is what God requires."

God requires? Raj, there is a huge fundamental flaw in your perception of what the scriptures teach about salvation.

Having said that I'm certain you will disagree, so, why don't we try and have a rational debate about what the scriptures teach on the subject?

Isaiah 28:10
For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:

Philippians 3: 7 At one time all these things were important to me. But because of Christ, I decided that they are worth nothing. 8 Not only these things, but now I think that all things are worth nothing compared with the greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. Because of Christ, I lost all these things, and now I know that they are all worthless trash. All I want now is Christ. 9 I want to belong to him. In Christ I am right with God, but my being right does not come from following the law. It comes from God through faith. God uses my faith in Christ to make me right with him. 10 All I want is to know Christ and the power that raised him from death. I want to share in his sufferings and be like him even in his death. 11 Then there is hope that I myself will somehow be raised from death.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Philippians 3: 7 At one time all these things were important to me. But because of Christ, I decided that they are worth nothing. 8 Not only these things, but now I think that all things are worth nothing compared with the greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. Because of Christ, I lost all these things, and now I know that they are all worthless trash. ...[text shortened]... ke him even in his death. 11 Then there is hope that I myself will somehow be raised from death.

This was a wonderful passage.

Let me echo the same thoughts as translated in the Recovery Version:

But what things were gains to me, these I have counted as loss on account of Christ.
But moreover I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them refuse that I may gain Christ.
And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteuosness which is out of God and based on faith, To know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, If perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead. ... etc.

Phil 3:7-11

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Good works to the poor and needy and living righteously is what God requires."

God requires? Raj, there is a huge fundamental flaw in your perception of what the scriptures teach about salvation.

Having said that I'm certain you will disagree, so, why don't we try and have a rational debate about what the scriptures teach on the subject?

Isa ...[text shortened]... , precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:[/b]

Yes God REQUIRES. That means its not optional .. it is compulsory for anyone aiming for eternal life. How many times did Christ have to say that good works is absolutely necessary... too many to mention. Here is one from the OT :

Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? (Mic 6:7-8)

Same sentiment. God is not impressed with the outward manifestations of peoples alleged faith .. burnt offerings, meetings, prayers, fasting etc. Faith has to be proven with tangible evidence of righteousness and good works in the form of love and charity and mercy.

Originally posted by sonship
This was a wonderful passage.

Let me echo the same thoughts as translated in the Recovery Version:

But what things were gains to me, these I have counted as loss on account of Christ.
But moreover I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have ...[text shortened]... If perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead. ... etc.

Phil 3:7-11

Did you and KellyJ actually read that whole chapter Jaywill? It is this same foolish idiotic grabbing of a few sentences from a whole chapter that makes your doctrine false.

Please read the whole Chapter of Phil 3.

This what you people do all the time. You latch on to one phrase in Romans that says accept Christ with your mouth and you will be saved and forget all the other teachings pertaining to eternal life.

Likewise the 'righteousness is filthy rags' [from Isaiah] comment was taken totally out of context. Righteousness compared to what GOD HAS PREPARED FOR MAN, is filthy rags. Righteousness is still essential however filthy it is.

Phillipians 3 is a personal statement Paul made comparing his life at the present time in Christ, and his life prior to meeting Christ when he was a Pharisee, when he observed the Law of Moses and when he was persecuting the Christians. So as far as the Law was concerned, and Paul was concerned he was righteous and blameless.

The Law of Moses was done away with for that very same reason. It encouraged outward appearances of righteousness because of the volume of rituals, sacrifices etc. And this is the point in Phil 3, that Paul was nothing with all his righteousness in the Law of Moses. In Christ, it is the law of Christ that works in his followers. In Christ nothing is important, no ritual, not sacrifice, but faith which worketh by love or believing in your heart. Any way you put it the end result of faith in Christ is a change in your life to one of love and charity toward others. It is not sufficient to say I have faith in Christ and therefore I am eternally saved. Faith that shows itself in good works leads to eternal life.

In Phillipians 3 Paul is not saying that he is eternally saved either. On the contrary

Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Pressing toward the mark means that there is still a lot of work to be done. He even condemned many in the same church which he set up in Phillipi who did not serve Christ and could not possibly be saved eternally :

Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) (Php 3:17-19)

Those who claim to have faith in Christ must demonstrate it with good works and righteousness. Nobody gets eternal life without it. Christ said that very clearly in Matt 25.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Good works to the poor and needy and living righteously is what God requires."

God requires? Raj, there is a huge fundamental flaw in your perception of what the scriptures teach about salvation.

Having said that I'm certain you will disagree, so, why don't we try and have a rational debate about what the scriptures teach on the subject?

Isa ...[text shortened]... , precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:[/b]

Ok JosephW, lets debate. Lets have a couple guidelines.
- Read the passage carefully before using it as proof .. ie the context. 'Righteousness is filthy rags' does not cut it. Its taken out of context.
- Quote the Bible .. let the Bible do the teaching. Keep personal opinions and 'out of the ballpark' interpretations out of it. eg I have heard that Christ jdugment in Matt 25 does not apply to followers of Christ. The Bible does not say that.
- Keep it brief and to the point.

Precept upon precept .. Lets do it.

Did you and KellyJ actually read that whole chapter Jaywill? It is this same foolish idiotic grabbing of a few sentences from a whole chapter that makes your doctrine false.

I made no doctrinal statement. I simply echoed Kelly in the importance of Paul's attitude about the new covenant faith.

Please read the whole Chapter of Phil 3.

What is it you wish me to notice ?

This what you people do all the time. You latch on to one phrase in Romans that says accept Christ with your mouth and you will be saved and forget all the other teachings pertaining to eternal life.

I don't know what you wish me to notice. But I would mention that the Apostle Paul's wonderful attitude in chapter three he definitely holds out as a good standard of Christian maturity.

"Let us therefore, as many as are full-grown, have this mind; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, this also God will reveal to you." (v.15)

The attitude that Paul expresses from verse 7 through 14 is what he recommends that all mature Christians should share. If you criticize his attitude it only exposes your infantile spiritual stature.

And I not quote the ENTIRE chapter only because it would make the post too long.

Likewise the 'righteousness is filthy rags' [from Isaiah] comment was taken totally out of context. Righteousness compared to what GOD HAS PREPARED FOR MAN, is filthy rags. Righteousness is still essential however filthy it is.

Paul said implied that on any given day he wanted to be "found in Him". He wanted to be found with his hands full of Christ, pre-occupied with Christ and living Christ.

Paul said that his pedigree of the past were dung, refuse, and dog food in comparison to the precious worth of the excellent knowledge of Christ. There was no comparison between the value of living in Christ with any good or bad works done by any system of ethics, especially the law of Moses.

He did not count himself to have arrived. But he did forget even his good experiences of just yesterday in order to keep stretching himself forward to know Christ in a deeper and deeper way.

"Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue, if even I may lay hhold of that for which I also have neeb laid hold of by Christ.
Brothers, I do not account of myself to have laid hold; but one thing I do; Forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before,
I pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called me upward." (vs.12-14)

He doess not rest on his lurals.
He does not linger in his past good experiences, even Christian experiences.
He is always leaning forward to experience Christ in a deeper way.

He wants to "know Him" and His resurrection power through all kinds of suffering. He wants to be conformed to His death that the self may be completely under the killing power of the cross and that he may live in Christ a his realm.

He does not count himself to have nothing more to gain.
On the contrary. He is still hungrey for more. He is still thristing to go deeper into knowing Jesus Christ.

After telling us of his quite mature attitude he recommends that all Christians who are mature should think similarly -

"Let is therefore, as many as are fullgrown, have this mind ..."

Are you studying Philippians stressing "this mind" , Rakf999. Or are you stressing some other matter ? Paul says that if you are otherwise minded that God will reveal "this mind" eventually also to you.

" ... and if in anything you are otherwise minded, this also God will reveal to you." (v.15)

Originally posted by sonship

Did you and KellyJ actually read that whole chapter Jaywill? It is this same foolish idiotic grabbing of a few sentences from a whole chapter that makes your doctrine false.

Of course I am familiar with the entire book of Philippians.

And when we converse you seem to cut off exchanges and discontiunue dialoging with me.

By th ng you are otherwise minded, this also God will reveal to you." (v.15)[/b]

You come across like a Pharisee. I think that says it all.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You come across like a Pharisee. I think that says it all.

You come across as a relative newcomer to the Bible.

You are easily prone to walk off in a huff because you are not sure how to defend your ideas.

I envy you that you are new to the Bible. But I think someones are training you not to listen but to only teach.

And you are also very judgmental of Christians as if YOU and YOU ONLY know what the Christian life is all about.

How did you get so very self righteous ?

Originally posted by sonship
You come across as a relative newcomer to the Bible.

You are easily prone to walk off in a huff because you are not sure how to defend your ideas.

I envy you that you are new to the Bible. But I think someones are training you not to listen but to only teach.

And you are also very judgmental of Christians as if YOU and YOU ONLY know what the Christian life is all about.

How did you get so very self righteous ?

I dont go around telling anyone about myself pal. I leave that for arrogant like yourself to engage in. You tell the world that you do this that and the other, read this that and the other, experience this that and the other. That you are so well read. Those are activities of the small minded.

You know nothing about me and what I do. All I do is say what Christ says about eternal life. If that runs contrary to your doctrine then thats tough.

As for Bible study etc .. the JWs have been at it for over 100 years. The Catholics for around 2000... and where are they .. close to Christ? Bible study and Bible interpretation does not help get closer to Christ. Here is how :

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Follow Christ commandments and you will get closer to Christ.

Your long posts remind me of politicians rambling on about foolishness and lies and that is all your doctrines are. Lies and deceit. Long posts also mean that you are not able to express yourself properly and worse having to constantly to explain means that you are not allowing the Bible to explain for itself. Do you think that Christ and Apostles lacked the ability to express themselves. They dont need your interpretation.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I dont go around telling anyone about myself pal. I leave that for arrogant like yourself to engage in. You tell the world that you do this that and the other, read this that and the other, experience this that and the other. That you are so well read. Those are activities of the small minded.

You know nothing about me and what I do. All I do is say what ...[text shortened]... hrist and Apostles lacked the ability to express themselves. They dont need your interpretation.

All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_work_and_no_play_makes_Jack_a_dull_boy

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/everybody-is-stupid-except-you/201209/what-does-all-work-and-no-play-make-jack

The Instructor