Originally posted by sonshipWitness Lee and Sal Benoit - DayStar Money Laundering
RJHinds wrote -
I believe you are just too indoctrinated by the false teachings of Witness Lee
Identify the "false teachings" or retract your charge.
RJHinds, you are hereby challenged by me to identify the false teaching or retract your accusation.
This is a telephone conversation between Witness Lee and Sal Benoit. Sal Benoit, an elder in the church in Boston, loaned $100k to fund DayStar, a company Witness Lee founded to produce and sell RVs. Because of Benoit's enormous investment, Witness Lee takes the liberty to describe a scheme that involved defrauding saints via a money laundering operation which involved juggling money between Living Stream Ministry (501c tax-exempt non-profit), DayStar and Phosphorus. When DayStar went bankrupt after the 1970s Iranian Oil Crisis, Witness Lee protected himself from losses, while forcing church members, many who took out huge loans or gave up their life savings, to lose everything they put in.
This is evidence of a cult leader's action to enrich himself at the expense of the gullible members.
21 May 15
Originally posted by RJHindsIf this is true then Witness Lee once again stands condemned by his actions. I suspected in myself that he was out to make money from the Christ a thing that is not permitted by scripture 'you received free you give free', The apostles all had to look after themselves and their families by working, this charlatan did no work.
Witness Lee and Sal Benoit - DayStar Money Laundering
This is a telephone conversation between Witness Lee and Sal Benoit. Sal Benoit, an elder in the church in Boston, loaned $100k to fund DayStar, a company Witness Lee founded to produce and sell RVs. Because of Benoit's enormous investment, Witness Lee takes the liberty to describe a scheme that invol ...[text shortened]... is evidence of a cult leader's action to enrich himself at the expense of the gullible members.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWitness Lee's teachings were mixed with truth and error and you may even agree with him on some points that departs from Orthodox Christianity.
If this is true then Witness Lee once again stands condemned by his actions. I suspected in myself that he was out to make money from the Christ a thing that is not permitted by scripture 'you received free you give free', The apostles all had to look after themselves and their families by working, this charlatan did no work.
The False Gospel of Witness Lee and the Living Stream Ministries
Orthodox Christianity teaches that the one God is three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Lee says:
The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three separate persons or three Gods; they are one God, one reality, one person… God is triune; that is, He is three-one. In some theological writings, the preposition in is added between three and one to make three-in-one. However, it is more accurate to say that God is three-one.
Witness Lee, The Triune God to Be Life to the Tripartite Man
(Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1970), p. 48
The traditional explanation of the Trinity is grossly inadequate and borders on tritheism. When the Spirit of God is joined with us, God is not left behind, nor does Christ remain on the throne. This is the impression Christianity gives. They think of the Father as one Person, sending the Son, another Person, to accomplish redemption, after which the Son sends the Spirit, yet another Person. The Spirit, in traditional thinking, comes into the believers, while the Father and Son are left on the throne. When believers pray, they are taught to bow before the Father and pray in the name of the Son. To split the Godhead into these separate Persons is not the revelation of the Bible, but the doctrine of the Nicene Creed.
Witness Lee, Life Messages
(Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1979), p. 164
See more at:
https://contrast2.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/the-false-gospel-of-witness-lee-and-the-living-stream-ministries/
6 Major Sins of Leeism
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/lsmlccult.htm
The Heretical Teachings of Witness Lee and the Local Church
http://localchurch.8m.com/cri-dl-075.html
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
21 May 15
Originally posted by RJHindsAllegations of misconduct by Witness Lee I will not - "He said, he said" charges are not what I asked about.
Witness Lee and Sal Benoit - DayStar Money Laundering
This is a telephone conversation between Witness Lee and Sal Benoit. Sal Benoit, an elder in the church in Boston, loaned $100k to fund DayStar, a company Witness Lee founded to produce and sell RVs. Because of Benoit's enormous investment, Witness Lee takes the liberty to describe a scheme that invol ...[text shortened]... is evidence of a cult leader's action to enrich himself at the expense of the gullible members.
It is typical that you put out this first to when pressed to produced false teachings.
So when disputing the age of the earth we can first point out that you appeared quite dishonest about using chess engines. That would be akin to what you have done here.
Now let me first examine your so-called false teachings from Witness Lee below this preliminary smear.
By the way, I was in the church in Boston under the eldership of Sal Benoit from about 1977. I know what it was like to be under the eldership of Sal Benoit. For now I would only say that you are not talking about someone that I have no experience and no acquaintance with.
But that is not the issue now. On to your "false teachings."
This is evidence of a cult leader's action to enrich himself at the expense of the gullible members.
Witness Lee didn't even own his own automobile.
Originally posted by RJHindsI dont agree with either position, they both infact make no sense to me. Its nonsense to talk of one God and three persons in that God or manifestations of that God or whatever you want to call it. Its also nonsense to talk of a three-one in relation to a single entity. The Bible states that God is one. Its a very simple concept. God is one. He is not three-one or three-in one, he is a single all powerful entity. Jesus Christ, the word of God is his King designate, destined to sit on his throne and the Holy spirit is the inanimate force which God uses to accomplish his will, the same force which works on the minds of believers, which enabled Christ to perform miracles, which parted the waters of the Red Sea. These things not only make sense, they can be Biblically established.
Witness Lee's teachings were mixed with truth and error and you may even agree with him on some points that departs from Orthodox Christianity.
[b]The False Gospel of Witness Lee and the Living Stream Ministries
Orthodox Christianity teaches that the one God is three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Lee says:
[quote] ...[text shortened]... l Teachings of Witness Lee and the Local Church[/b]
http://localchurch.8m.com/cri-dl-075.html[/b]
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by RJHinds
Witness Lee's teachings were mixed with truth and error and you may even agree with him on some points that departs from Orthodox Christianity.
This first charge you will have to prove. No Christian is infallible. And James said teachers all make mistakes (James 3:1,2)
But you are not going to get away with me just saying no one claimed infallibility with any Christian teacher. You are going to have to point out the mixed in error with the truth. And just your disagreement will not do.
The False Gospel of Witness Lee and the Living Stream Ministries
That is simply an allegation and not evidence of false teaching. Substance of your allegation must follow.
Orthodox Christianity teaches that the one God is three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Above you say Orthodox Christianity teaches three distinct persons, but below you do not use the word distinct but "separate".
First Witness Lee admitted that the Trinity was difficult for him or anyone to explain -
This one unique God is triune. I do not know how to explain this, although for many years I tried. During the past fifty years, I spent a great deal of time analyzing and trying to understand the Trinity. Since I could find no way to resolve it, I gave up long ago. I said to myself, “Little man, you are too small. You can never understand the Trinity adequately.”
From The Revelation of the Triune God According to the Pure Word of the Bible by Witness Lee
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/booklets/revelation.html
The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three separate persons or three Gods; they are one God, one reality, one person… God is triune; that is, He is three-one. In some theological writings, the preposition in is added between three and one to make three-in-one. However, it is more accurate to say that God is three-one.
The word Witness Lee used here was not "distinct". He said the three were not "separate".
The terms such as substance, essence, subsistence, and person were all invented for/or adapted to theological usage. Very few English-speaking people are familiar with these terms. These terms are used because, as Griffith Thomas says, we do not have language adequate to explain the mystery of the Trinity. However, the more terms you invent, the more trouble you will have. Not long ago, I read a mimeographed article written against us by some opposers. On one page, this article says that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three separate and distinct persons in the nature of one God. Toward the end of the article, it says that these three persons should not be made so separate that They become three Gods. I laughed when I read this. The writer of this article cannot reconcile his own words. On one page, he says that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three separate and distinct persons, but on another page, he says that we should not make Them “too separate.” How separate is “too separate”? To what extent are the three persons separate? As you separate the Three, you will have three Gods.
From Young People's Training messages given in the late 70s.
In John 17:11 the Lord prayed, “Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.” Notice that here again the Lord speaks of Himself and the Father as “We.” Why a plural pronoun if They are one? I do not know. It is a mystery, beyond the reach of human language or understanding.
Lee is being persecuted by RJHinds because he humbly admitted that according to human language the Triune God is difficult to explain. Sometimes He said "persons" even though he said like Griffith Thomas that we can only borrow the word "persons" and not stress it too far.
Below the words in bold black are those of Augustine or Griffith Thomas whom Witness Lee quoted.
Throughout the centuries, many great teachers have attempted to reconcile the two aspects of the Triune God. In doing so, they have invented certain terms. For example, they invented the term “person” and spoke of the three persons of the one God. Humanly speaking, as a convenience in explaining the Trinity, we may temporarily borrow this term. But we should not stress it. It is illogical to speak of the three persons of the one God. Let us see what Augustine has to say on this matter. Augustine was accused of being a modalist because he was unable to find human language to adequately express the mystery of the Triune God. Augustine said:
Our Greek friends have spoken of one essence, three substances, but the Latins have one essence or substance, three Persons... provided that what is said is understood only in mystery, such a way of speaking was sufficient...We say three Persons, then why do we not also say three Gods? Or else, on account of their ineffable union these three are together one God, why not also one Person; so that we could not say three Persons, although we call each a Person singly, just as we can not say three Gods, although we call each singly God, whether the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit? Is it because Scripture does not say three Gods? But neither do we find that Scripture anywhere mentions three Persons.
The term “three Persons” does not exist in the Scripture, but is added by men in their interpretation. Since they cannot say that the Three—Father, Son, and the Spirit—are three Gods, what else can they say? So the designation “three Persons” is used. Actually, to use the designation “three Persons” to explain the Father, Son, and Spirit is also not quite satisfactory, because “three Persons” really means three persons. Therefore, Griffith Thomas, famous for his exposition on the book of Romans and for being one of the founders of Dallas Theological Seminary, says in his book, The Principles of Theology:
The term “Person” is also sometimes objected to. Like all human language, it is liable to be accused of inadequacy and even positive error. It certainly must not be pressed too far, or it will lead to Tritheism...While we are compelled to use terms like “substance” and “Person,” we are not to think of them as identical with what we understand as human substance and personality...The truth and experience of the Trinity is not dependent upon the theological terminology.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
21 May 15
From The Revelation of the Triune God According to the Pure word of the Bible by Witness Lee
D. All Three Are Eternal
Some of the rumors and accusations claim that we do not believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are eternal. I do not know where the critics and accusers get such a thought. We want to declare to all that, in accordance with the Bible, we believe that the Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Spirit also is eternal. We believe this and declare it because the Bible tells us so.
1. The Father Is Eternal
Isaiah 9:6 has the term the “everlasting Father.” The literal translation of the Hebrew phrase here is “Father of eternity” or “eternal Father.” Hence, the Father is eternal.
2. The Son Is Eternal
The Son also is eternal. Hebrews 1:12 says of the Son, “Thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.” Hebrews 7:3 says that He has no beginning of days nor end of life, meaning that He is eternal. Eternal is that which has no beginning or ending. This is why a circle rather than a straight line is a sign of the eternal God. He has no beginning and no ending.
3. The Spirit Is Eternal
The Spirit also is eternal, for Hebrews 9:14 speaks of “the eternal Spirit.” Therefore, let everyone know that in accordance with the Bible, we declare that all Three, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, are eternal.
E. All Three Exist at the Same Time
The Father, Son, and Spirit all exist at the same time. Notice John 14:16-17: “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth.” In these two verses we have the Son praying to the Father that the Father would send the Spirit. Hence, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all present at the same time.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by RJHindsRJHinds:
Orthodox Christianity teaches that the one God is three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Witness Lee from The Conclusion of the New Testament
Certain of today’s fundamental Bible teachers are actually tritheistic, perhaps unconsciously. These teachers say not only that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are distinct but also that They are separate. We can say that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are distinct, but not that They are separate. We cannot separate the Son from the Father, or the Father and the Son from the Spirit, because all three coexist and coinhere. In the Gospel of John the Son said that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him (10:38; 14:10-11). Since the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son, how can They be separated? The Lord Jesus also said that He and the Father are one (John 10:30). This is further proof that the Father and the Son, although distinct, cannot be separated. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are distinct but not separate, because they are three and yet one.
Conclusion of the New Testament, The (Msgs. 001-020) by Witness Lee
Distinct but Not Separate
http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=0A8D09FDE3
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by RJHinds
The Heretical Teachings of Witness Lee and the Local Church
http://localchurch.8m.com/cri-dl-075.html
Just links is the lazy way RJHinds.
So you can always back out and say YOU didn't write it.
This is too lazy and irresponsible of you here, just to send me off to argue with this other guy.
This is as superficial as that website of clay figurines of dinosaurs found in Mexico you linked me to. Then followed its bogus nature up with a "Well, ... well it shows something" Though I am not sure WHAT.
So you smear with character assassination of Lee and only as a second defense link to some doctrinal arguments someone ELSE made.
You go read too then:
Most striking is the testimony of the Christian Research Institute (CRI), a widely respected apologetics ministry best known for its radio program Bible Answer Man . Under the leadership of President and radio host Walter Martin, CRI was among the first to disseminate criticism of Witness Lee and the local churches. In 2003 representatives of the local churches approached Martin’s successor, Hank Hanegraaff, to address previous charges of heresy. This was the first time in history that representatives of the local churches were given opportunity to explain their own beliefs and practices to past critics. As a result of this dialogue, CRI initiated a six-year research project culminating in a reassessment of its earlier negative evaluation. These findings were published in a special issue of the Christian Research Journal entitled “We Were Wrong.” There, Hank Hanegraaff, Elliot Miller (the journal’s editor-in-chief), and Gretchen Passantino (director of Answers in Action) strongly affirmed the orthodoxy of the local churches. Excerpts from that publication, as well as other writings, are provided here.
Influential voices across the evangelical world have confirmed this change in view. Fuller Theological Seminary, among the largest and most respected seminaries in the world, conducted a two-year study of the local churches and the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. This process resulted in a definitive statement endorsing the orthodoxy of the local churches later echoed by the leading evangelical news magazine Christianity Today
.
Three major voices—leaders in Christian apologetics, theological education, and evangelical journalism—now share a new and positive view. We hope that these testimonies will help you have a true and accurate understanding of our beliefs and practices
From Voices of Confimation Concerning Watchman Nee and Witness Lee
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/eBooks/Voices%20of%20Confirmation.pdf
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I dont agree with either position, they both infact make no sense to me. Its nonsense to talk of one God and three persons in that God or manifestations of that God or whatever you want to call it. Its also nonsense to talk of a three-one in relation to a single entity. The Bible states that God is one. Its a very simple concept. God is one. He ...[text shortened]... he waters of the Red Sea. These things not only make sense, they can be Biblically established.
I dont agree with either position, they both infact make no sense to me. Its nonsense to talk of one God and three persons in that God or manifestations of that God or whatever you want to call it. Its also nonsense to talk of a three-one in relation to a single entity. The Bible states that God is one. Its a very simple concept. God is one. He is not three-one or three-in one, he is a single all powerful entity.
When I read this from an Arian I think of the wisdom of Paul's words in Galatians 4:29
"But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now."
The Bible says that Ishmael MOCKED Isaac. And this is symbol of how those not born of the Spirit mock those who have undergone the re-birth.
"Its simple. Its a synch." And you argue for the pre-incarnate God of the Old Testament.
You don't even realize that even in the Old Testament God was mysteriously the Sent One and the Sender. He was both Jehovah and the Angel of Jehovah.
Your designation of "nonsense" is just like Ishmael, born of man's fleshly effort, mocking Isaac the son born miraculously of God's promise.
Since we are on the subject of Witness Lee's ministry hear, here is what he said about the mocking of Ishmael of Isaac.
I believe that as Paul was writing about peace, he had the sense deep within that he was maintained in peace because he bore the brands of Jesus. In principle, our experience today is the same. I do not think that those who criticize, persecute, and ridicule us have peace deep within. But the Lord can testify for us that, in spite of opposition and ridicule, we enjoy a deep inward peace, the peace which comes with the assurance that we are taking the way of the cross. This kind of persecution is an indication that we are those born according to the Spirit, not according to the flesh. Those who persecute others and mock them surely are children according to the flesh. We should have a positive outlook concerning the persecution which comes because we take the way of the cross. When we are persecuted, we should praise the Lord and thank Him. We are not Ishmael mocking Isaac; we are Isaac being mocked by Ishmael. We are accused of being a cult and of propagating heresy. Many false accusations have been made against us in print. However, I can testify that in the midst of all this, I am at peace and sleep well every night. Bearing the brands of Jesus keeps us in a peaceful condition. Furthermore, this opposition and persecution indicate that we are on the right track with the Lord....
The four hundred thirty years mentioned in 3:17 are counted from the time God gave Abraham the promise in Genesis 12 to the time He gave the law through Moses in Exodus 20. This period was considered by God as the time of the children of Israel's dwelling in Egypt (Exo. 12:40-41). The four hundred years mentioned in Genesis 15:13 and Acts 7:6 are counted from the time Ishmael mocked Isaac in Genesis 21 to the time the children of Israel came out of Egyptian tyranny in Exodus 12. This is the period when Abraham's descendants suffered the persecution of the Gentiles.
From The Life Study of Galatians WL
http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=2F94CDD6DC
21 May 15
Originally posted by sonshipNo, that is not what I meant. I read the first few posts of the thread and it was rather boring. It was exactly what you should have expected: RJ totally ignoring missing the point of what you actually asked and posting references to the first dirt he could find on the subject.
Yea, yea, I know ...
" Popcorn, popcorn and drinks for sale. Come and enjoy two Christians arguing. "
Either you do not know RJ very well, or you knew he would do that but started the thread anyway. If the latter is the case, then what was your real motivation?
21 May 15
Originally posted by sonshipyour accusations of mocking are ludicrous, your willingness to attempt to utilise scripture to deny the very substance of the text deplorable.
[quote] I dont agree with either position, they both infact make no sense to me. Its nonsense to talk of one God and three persons in that God or manifestations of that God or whatever you want to call it. Its also nonsense to talk of a three-one in relation to a single entity. The Bible states that God is one. Its a very simple concept. God is one. He is no ...[text shortened]... Life Study of Galatians WL
http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=2F94CDD6DC[/b]