RJHinds Identifies Witness Lee's "False Teaching"

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Whether it is bad for you remains to be seen but it sure dont look good. As for Acts 8:37 and other spurious texts that cannot be found in the original manuscripts but were later added by copyists please read the following.

In the late 19th century, scholars B. F. Westcott and F.J.A. Hort compared existing Bible manuscripts and fragments as they ...[text shortened]... omission.

http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/appendix-a/how-the-bible-came-to-us/#p1

Whether it is bad for you remains to be seen but it sure dont look good.

To one who cannot see John 1:1 and 14 for what they say, that is no confidence builder that you can be trusted to "see" rightly here.

RJHInds,

Who raised Jesus from the dead ?

Similarly, concerning Christ’s resurrection, the Bible testifies that the entire Triune God was involved. It says:

God (the Father) raised Him from the dead? (Acts 2:24, 32; 10:40; Gal. 1:1);

Or the Lord raised Himself up ? (John 2:19; Acts 10:41; 1 Thes. 4:14);

Or was it by the Holy Spirit ??
(Rom. 1:4; 1 Pet. 3:18).

So if I affirm that all three of the Trinity were involved in the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, is that Modalism ?

If we receive the Bible’s testimony concerning the eternal coinherence of the Divine Trinity,13 then we must affirm that even as Christ was passing through death and entered into resurrection, He was never separated from the Father and the Spirit essentially. Of this truth, Thomas F. Torrance wrote:

The Son and the Father were one and not divided, each dwelling in the other, even in that ‘hour and power of darkness’ when Jesus was smitten of God and afflicted and pierced for our transgressions.14

The co-workers of Lee write:

It is true that the Son is the central figure and subject of the incarnation (John 1:14; Rom. 8:3) and that it was the Son who went to the cross to accomplish redemption (Eph. 1:7; 1 John 1:7). It is also true that the Spirit plays the central role in the believers’ indwelling (Rom. 8:11; 1 Cor. 3:16). But that is not the complete revelation of the Bible. Yes, the Father sent the Son, but in what way did He send the Son? He sent the Son through the divine conception by the Holy Spirit (Matt. 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35), and in the Son’s coming, the Father came with Him and even in Him (John 8:29; 14:10-11; 16:32). When Christ died on the cross, God was in Him reconciling the world to Himself (2 Cor. 5:19; cf. Rom. 5:10). Furthermore, when the Father sent the Spirit to indwell the believers, this was equivalent to the Son coming to indwell the believers (John 14:16-17, 20; cf. Rom. 8:9-11; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 2:20; Col. 1:27) and the Father and the Son coming to make Their home in them (John 14:23). Not only so, in the Spirit’s coming, we have come to know that the Son is in the Father, that we are in the Son, and that the Son is in us (John 14:20).15

Originally posted by sonship

Whether it is bad for you remains to be seen but it sure dont look good.

To one who cannot see John 1:1 and 14 for what they say, that is no confidence builder that you can be trusted to "see" rightly here.

I recall that when John 1:1 was being discussed you were unwilling to enter into both a linguistic and grammatical discussion of the verse and could not explain why in the first part of the verse your translators managed to employ the Greek idiom but somehow managed to fail to do the same in the second clause completely ignoring the indefinite Greek article in their translation. I dont think ill be taking any lessons from you or your corrupt translators on what John 1:1 actually says.

Not only that it has been pointed out to you in the very same chapter that no one has seen God the implication that logically Jesus could not therefore have been God because many people saw him and that its not possible to be someone and be with them at the same time. You have no answer for these irrational beliefs that you have inherited and none can be found in scripture to support your stance.

RJHinds, if he has the guts, affirms to stand fully behind this splice -

The Godhead is not a Person. The Godhead does not have folds or modes. The 1st Person is not the 2nd Person. How absurd to say the Godhead is a Person of 3 Persons to confuse the meaning of Persons in the Trinity. Satan is the author of confusion. This is confusing the meaning of what God's 3 Persons are and debasing the Godhead down to man's interpretation narrow-minded thinking. They can't understand how the Father is not the Son and how God's 3 Persons are not a Person. In the Godhead what is the point of saying there are 3 Persons, only then to say the 1st Person is the 2nd Person and mentioning of a 4th Person to these 3 Persons!? Please do not speak of the Father as being the Son.

The Bible says the Son given is called the Eternal Father (Isaiah 9:6)

The Bible says the Lord is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17).

So distinct yet not separate is a good way to describe this God who is so profound. And those who reserve the right to believe all that the BIble has to say about the Three-one God should not be called Modalists.

Witness Lee again -

II. GOD IS TRIUNE

This one unique God is triune. I do not know how to explain this, although for many years I tried. During the past fifty years, I spent a great deal of time analyzing and trying to understand the Trinity. Since I could find no way to resolve it, I gave up long ago. I said to myself, “Little man, you are too small. You can never understand the Trinity adequately.”
A. “I” Is “Us”

Isaiah 6:8 says, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Is God “I” or “Us”? We may say that He is both. Although I cannot say why, I know that He is both “I” and “Us.” I do not know why. As we have already mentioned, in Genesis 1:26 God refers to Himself as “Us” and speaks of “Our” image. The same principle is used in Genesis 3:22 and 11:7.

We find the same thought in the New Testament. In John 14:23 Jesus said, “If a man loves me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” In this verse we read of “We” and “Our.” Surely “We” and “Our” are plural. Are the “Father” and “I” two Gods or one? Surely They are one. Then why does the Lord say “We”? If you answer, “Because here you have both the Father and the Son,” then I would ask you, “How could one God be both?”

In John 17:11 the Lord prayed, “Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.” Notice that here again the Lord speaks of Himself and the Father as “We.” Why a plural pronoun if They are one? I do not know. It is a mystery, beyond the reach of human language or understanding.
B. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

Matthew 28:19 speaks clearly of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. However, if you read this verse carefully, you will see that the Three have just one name. It says, “baptizing them into the name” (not names) “of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” There are Three with one name. This is the Triune God, the Trinity. How can we explain this? We cannot.

Andrew Murray in The Spirit of Christ, chapter twenty, says, “In the Father we have the unseen God, the Author of all. In the Son God revealed, made manifest, and brought nigh; He is the Form of God. In the Spirit of God we have the indwelling God: the Power of God dwelling in human body and working in it what the Father and the Son have for us….what the Father has purposed, and the Son has procured, can be appropriated and take effect in the body of Christ only through the continual intervention and active operation of the Holy Spirit.”
C. All Three Are God
1. The Father Is God

Undoubtedly the Father is God. In various places the New Testament speaks of God the Father. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 and Ephesians 1:17.
2. The Son Is God

The Son also is God. Hebrews 1:8 says, “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God….” Here the Son is addressed as God. John 1:1 says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” The Word certainly is Christ, the Son. Since the Word is God, the Son also is God. Furthermore, Romans 9:5 says, “Christ…who is over all, God blessed for ever.” I like this verse. Christ the Son is not only God; He is God over all.
3. The Spirit Is God

In Acts 5:3-4 we see that the Spirit is God. In verse 3 Peter told Ananias that he had lied to the Holy Spirit, and in the next verse that he had lied to God. These verses equate the Holy Spirit with God.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are God. How many Gods do we have? We have one. How can the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all be God and yet there be only one God? The only answer we can give is, “I don’t know.”

1. The Son Is the Father

Let us look at Isaiah 9:6: “Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

Who is this child? It is Jesus. Where is this child born? In the manger at Bethlehem. “Unto us a son is given.” Who is this son? It is Jesus. Whose Son is He? He is God’s Son. God so loved the world that He gave us His Only Begotten Son. Not only is a child born to us, but also a Son is given to us. (God gives His Son to us. Why is He called Wonderful? Because He is not simple. It is not easy to understand Him, nor can we fully do so. He is wonderful. This child by the name of Jesus, who was born in the manger at Bethlehem, is also called the Mighty God. Do you believe this? The Jewish people do not. They do not believe that that little Jesus is the Mighty God. If they believed it, they would immediately become real Christians. I believe it! My God is Jesus! My God is that little child. That little child who was born of Mary in that manger at Bethlehem is my Mighty God! His fourth name or title is the Everlasting Father. The Son who is given to us is called “the Everlasting Father.” Is He the Son or the Father? If you believe that the child born to us is the Mighty God, you have to believe also that the Son given to us is the Everlasting Father. To say that the Son is the Father is according to the pure Word of God.

Now turn to John 14:8-9. “Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip: he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?” This word indicates clearly that the Son is the Father. Yet some twist this word saying that the Son is not the Father, but the representative of the Father. If you read the context without any twisting, you can realize that the Son was the Father there. Philip asked the Son to show him the Father. The Son was surprised, saying, “I have been with you such a long time and you have seen Me. Since you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.” Here we may say to Philip, “Haven’t you read Isaiah? It tells you that the Son is the Father. Since He is here, why do you ask Him to show you the Father? He is the Father.” So, He said, “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30).

The following is a quotation taped at a meeting of some people who were discussing how to deal with our so-called heresy. In their conversation this was said: “… Anyway, Isaiah 9:6, For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulders and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Prince of Peace, the mighty God, the everlasting Father. There Jesus is called the Father. Right? So He’s the Father. That’s what it says. That’s Isaiah 9:6. Now we don’t normally say this because tradition is involved here.” Please notice this. These critics admit that, for fear of their tradition, they normally do not say that Jesus is the Father. They dare not speak the truth, yet they turn their attack upon us. Are we for traditions? Do you care for traditions? In every Christian’s conscience and mind, he must admit that in Isaiah 9:6 the Son is called the Father. I am glad that in the midst of the opposers’ attack, there is this honest word, admitting that, according to the clear word of Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is the Father, even though they do not normally say this because it involves the matter of tradition.

Some, however, have twisted this verse, saying, “The Son is called the Father, but He is not the Father.” This is ridiculous! You are called by a certain name, yet you are not that person! Once a certain man said to me, “This Father here is not God the Father. He is the Father that brought forth the race of Israel.” I said, “Don’t say this. Here it does not say the ‘Father of Israel’; it says, ‘the Father of eternity.’ If you say that the Son who is called the Father is not the Father, then you must also admit that the child who is called the Mighty God is not the Mighty God. But certainly the child is the Mighty God. Thus, as long as you admit the one, you must recognize the other.” No sober mind would deny this.

Taken from The Revelation of the Triune God According to the Pure Word of the Bible
by Witness Lee

http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/booklets/revelation.html

Originally posted by sonship
I doubt that you even understood the unethical and most likely illegal wire tap between a disgruntled Sal Benoit and Witness Lee.

I doubt that you even have enough knowledge about the terms used and procedures to even evaluate that something charlatan like was committed.

You have a purposeful recording to TRAP someone disliked into listening to the other make some statements.

Truth does not depend on legalism or what some may declare legal or illegal from time to time. Don't be like the Pharisees and the Sadducees.

Originally posted by sonship
RJHinds, if he has the guts, affirms to stand fully behind this splice -

[quote] The Godhead is not a Person. The Godhead does not have folds or modes. The 1st Person is not the 2nd Person. How absurd to say the Godhead is a Person of 3 Persons to confuse the meaning of Persons in the Trinity. Satan is the author of confusion. This is confusing the meani ...[text shortened]... by Witness Lee

http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/booklets/revelation.html[/b]

I do not accept the Gospel According to Witness Lee. 😏

HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I dont agree with either position, they both infact make no sense to me. Its nonsense to talk of one God and three persons in that God or manifestations of that God or whatever you want to call it. Its also nonsense to talk of a three-one in relation to a single entity. The Bible states that God is one. Its a very simple concept. God is one. He ...[text shortened]... he waters of the Red Sea. These things not only make sense, they can be Biblically established.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we get it that you are not mainstream Christianity, but a bizarre, cult-like offshoot.

"Biblically established"? Maybe in your Bible they can. But then, your Bible was written specifically to follow your dogma, which was made up long before your Bible was commissioned.

Originally posted by twhitehead
No, that is not what I meant. I read the first few posts of the thread and it was rather boring. It was exactly what you should have expected: RJ totally ignoring missing the point of what you actually asked and posting references to the first dirt he could find on the subject.
Either you do not know RJ very well, or you knew he would do that but started the thread anyway. If the latter is the case, then what was your real motivation?

This is like blaming a rape victim for the rape.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Whether it is bad for you remains to be seen but it sure dont look good. As for Acts 8:37 and other spurious texts that cannot be found in the original manuscripts but were later added by copyists please read the following.

In the late 19th century, scholars B. F. Westcott and F.J.A. Hort compared existing Bible manuscripts and fragments as they ...[text shortened]... omission.

http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/appendix-a/how-the-bible-came-to-us/#p1

Nice story, bro.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I do not accept the Gospel According to Witness Lee. 😏

HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!

This, from someone who believes the earth to be 6000 years old.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we get it that you are not mainstream Christianity, but a bizarre, cult-like offshoot.

"Biblically established"? Maybe in your Bible they can. But then, your Bible was written specifically to follow your dogma, which was made up long before your Bible was commissioned.

You dont know anything about Koine Greek, Hebrew or anything else in relation to accurate translation, stop pretending that you do, its nauseating, you dont know anything about it! All you can do is parrot your prejudices and project your ignorance. Do you understand? that is the entire summation of your understanding so go away and stop being such an airhead.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Nice story, bro.

Which part are you disputing and on what basis your airheadness?

I believe we discussed all of this before on Witness Lee's Local Church Cult Thread 159943 started in Jul 2014.

One person said the following about Witness Lee's Local Church Cult:

They teach their followers that they are the ONE and only TRUE church. They also teach them that the dissenting ones that don't agree with Witness Lee will spit the poison of the devil at you. They dislike all denominations. They say the Catholics are the Great Harlot of Babylon. Beware of Bibles for America. They are peddling the Bible written by Witness Lee. It is NOT a TRUE authenticated Bible. It is WITNESS LEE'S BIBLE. IT is not backed by ANY ONE, except the followers and brainwashed victims of Witness Lee.

The Local Church cult teach that all denominations of Christianity are the daughter whores of the Great whore of Babylon, the harlot that sits upon the waters (Revelation 17). And that harlot is the Roman Catholic Church from which the denominations all came. They teach that the Local Church which came from Witness Lee is the only church that is an exception to this.

According to them, Satan has taken another step by creating all the sects to decieve mankind and to bring divisions in the body of Christ. They say God is moving in these days through the LORD's RECOVERY to RECOVER the way of the proper unity by the Local Church so Christians can have a proper and adequate church life.

The person I quoted above also said he had lost a family member to one of Witness Lee's Local Church cult groups by brainwashing when they came to the college campus where his family member was living while attending college.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I believe we discussed all of this before on Witness Lee's Local Church Cult Thread 159943 started in Jul 2014.

One person said the following about Witness Lee's Local Church Cult:
[quote]They teach their followers that they are the ONE and only TRUE church. They also teach them that the dissenting ones that don't agree with Witness Lee wil ...[text shortened]... when they came to the college campus where his family member was living while attending college.

Here comes the false accusation on exclusivism...

Our Inclusiveness to all Genuine Believers
http://truthandlifematters.blogspot.com/2014/09/our-practice-and-attitude-toward-other.html

Misrepresenting Witness Lee’s Critique of Christianity
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/Geisler-Rhodes/critique-of-christianity.html

Misrepresenting Witness Lee and Defending the Roman Catholic Church
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/Geisler-Rhodes/defend-Roman-Catholicism.html

Applying a Double Standard with Regard to Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/Geisler-Rhodes/double-standard.html

Criticism of Christianity
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/libel-litigations/harvest-house-et-al/responses/Christianity/index.html

I don't like Troy Brooks being a whako and dishonest person.