Originally posted by sonhouseI don't know what they expect there. But some of the preachers here say whatever
That dummies want to give him. Hmm, lets see, someone gives the orthodox pope or whatever you want to call him, gives him a watch worth 30,000 bucks, and he doesn't expect some favors in return? You are naive.
you give will produce 7 fold return. They view it like a financial investment.
It is amazing how many people believe those preachers. Satan deceives in
so many ways.
Originally posted by Proper KnobI don't believe you. Whats more, I don't believe it is possible.
I'm not extravagant in the slightest.
What are you wittering on about?! Excuses for my own behaviour?! I'm criticising a member of the Church owning a $30,000 watch. That is was this thread is about, you seem to have gone off on a bizarre tangent.
I don't know why you think it is bizarre, nor why you think it is a tangent. The issues in the OP are quite clear and lead to some obvious and interesting questions:
1. is it morally wrong to be extravagant?
2. is it unchristian to be extravagant?
3. is everybody extravagant to some degree?
4. is the person in the OP beyond a certain limit of extravagance that is 'wrong' whereas you and I are 'OK'?
Now, do you think this Russian clergyman wearing a $30,000 watch is extravagant?
Of course I do, which is why I hardly think that that in itself is worth discussing. I think my above questions and more, are far more interesting.
Do you think it contradicts the teachings of Jesus?
Yes. But as I pointed out earlier, I am yet to meet a Christian that I think does not contradict the teachings of Jesus. I think Jesus' teaching of love exceeds what we are naturally inclined to give and even exceeds what even the most loving of us are willing to give. I think that many Christians recognise this and give excuses in one form or another - the most common of which is 'I am not perfect, but I don't need to be because Christ paid for my imperfections already'. Nevertheless, Jesus never told his disciples to take it easy and not to worry as he was going to pay for their sins later.
-Removed-He is paid by the church isn't he?
It is actually unclear to me what his stipend would be. He is a monastic and I do not know whether, as in the Catholic Church, elevation to the episcopate would release him from monastic vows. No doubt he receives a stipend of some kind but I doubt that it is likely to be substantial. He has to be accountable to his fellow bishops.
Again, I repeat, there is no evidence that the Church bought this watch. It could have been a gift of some political dignitary or foreign delegate. There is no reason to think that he would have recognised the value of the watch. I don't think you really appreciate the grandness of his position as patriarch. It is highly plausible it was a gift.
The laity pay their tithes of obedience into the church do they not?
I do not believe that the Russian Orthodox Church tithes. I suspect that the Church derives most of its wealth from land, from various tax reliefs from the Russian government, and through investment. I seriously doubt that the Russian Orthodox Church relies on the wealth of its laity. The country is predominantly atheist anyway and church attendance is extremely low.
Originally posted by sonhouseIt's the dress those guy's wear that gets to me.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/06/world/europe/in-russia-a-watch-vanishes-up-orthodox-leaders-sleeve.html
Then tries to cover it up with photoshopping it off his arm. If you wondered where church money goes......
I wonder how much food that would buy for starving people around the world?
I thought I was extravagant paying $50 for a casio G force radio controlled watch....
I'll bet mine is even way more accurate.
Originally posted by RJHindsSure, why else is it that similar garb is worn by graduands, by fellows at college dinners and by judges in courts? Why should it surprise you that members of high religious office should also wear traditional garb?
Yes, I guess they think it makes them look important and something special.
Originally posted by twhiteheadSo you agree with the two objections i raised, but felt the need to go off on a tangent about my hypocrisy, excuses, extravagance and my denial/lying/dishonesty (whichever you think it is) about the assertions you inserted even though you know absolutely nothing about me.
I don't believe you. Whats more, I don't believe it is possible.
[b]What are you wittering on about?! Excuses for my own behaviour?! I'm criticising a member of the Church owning a $30,000 watch. That is was this thread is about, you seem to have gone off on a bizarre tangent.
I don't know why you think it is bizarre, nor why you think it is a tan ...[text shortened]... ciples to take it easy and not to worry as he was going to pay for their sins later.[/b]