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Originally posted by jaywillLAKE OF FIRE
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After the judgement, all those who do not "make the cut" will simply cease to exist further, being denied eternal life and suffering the ultimate punishment, eternal separation from God, i.e. the final death of their soul.
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But if the judgment is called "eternal judgme alse prophet will be tormented [b]"day and night forever and ever" ? [/b]
This expression occurs only in the book of Revelation and is clearly symbolic. The Bible gives its own explanation and definition of the symbol by stating: “This means the second death, the lake of fire.”—Re 20:14; 21:8.
The symbolic quality of the lake of fire is further evident from the context of references to it in the book of Revelation. Death is said to be hurled into this lake of fire. (Re 20:14, 20) Death obviously cannot be literally burned. Moreover, the Devil, an invisible spirit creature, is thrown into the lake. Being spirit, he cannot be hurt by literal fire.—Re 20:10; compare Ex 3:2 and Jg 13:20.
Since the lake of fire represents “the second death” and since Revelation 20:14 says that both “death and Hades” are to be cast into it, it is evident that the lake cannot represent the death man has inherited from Adam (Ro 5:12), nor does it refer to Hades (Sheol). It must, therefore, be symbolic of another kind of death, one that is without reversal, for the record nowhere speaks of the “lake” as giving up those in it, as do Adamic death and Hades (Sheol). (Re 20:13) Thus, those not found written in “the book of life,” unrepentant opposers of God’s sovereignty, are hurled into the lake of fire, meaning eternal destruction, or the second death.—Re 20:15.
While the foregoing texts make evident the symbolic quality of the lake of fire, it has been used by some persons to support belief in a literal place of fire and torment. Revelation 20:10 has been appealed to, because it speaks of the Devil, the wild beast, and the false prophet as being “tormented day and night forever and ever” in the lake of fire. However, this cannot refer to actual conscious torment. Those thrown into the lake of fire undergo “the second death.” (Re 20:14) In death there is no consciousness and, hence, no feeling of pain or suffering.—Ec 9:5.
In the Scriptures fiery torment is associated with destruction and death. For example, in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures the word for torment (basanos) is several times used with reference to punishment by death. (Eze 3:20; 32:24, 30) Similarly, concerning Babylon the Great, the book of Revelation says, “the kings of the earth . . . will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment [Gr., basanismou].” (Re 18:9, 10) As to the meaning of the torment, an angel later explains: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.” (Re 18:21) So, fiery torment here is parallel with destruction, and in the case of Babylon the Great, it is everlasting destruction.—Compare Re 17:16; 18:8, 15-17, 19.
Therefore, those who are ‘tormented forever’ (from Gr., basanizo) in the lake of fire undergo “second death” from which there is no resurrection. The related Greek word basanistes is translated ‘jailer’ in Matthew 18:34. (RS, NW, ED; compare vs 30.) Thus those hurled into the lake of fire will be held under restraint, or “jailed,” in death throughout eternity.—See GEHENNA; TORMENT.
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Originally posted by buckky======================================
You speak with such conviction. How can you know the things you speak of ?Has some minister told you these things or is it your interpretation of the Bible or what ?
I fear you are as much in the dark about these issues as I am. Face it we have been cut off from any direct communication with Truth. We have a Book "The Bible ". All religions have the Holy Bo ...[text shortened]... e same Book. We are in the Dark on spiritual issues. The blind leading the blind is dangerous.
Why does God not appear in the sky and set the human race straight,
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Did you ever read about what the Israelites did after they came to Mt. Sinai ? Exodus 19 speaks of God appearing to this nation. Read Exodus 19,20, 24:9-11; then read chapter 32.
The fearful sight of God upon Mt. Sinai lasted for 40 days while Moses went up into the Mountian and converesed with God. Seventy elders went part of the way but were not permitted as close an audience with God Almighty.
What happened after 40 days ? Do you recall something about the Israelites making for themselves an idol of a golden calf ?
What do you think might have been the lesson of this story ?
These chapters are a big lesson on the visible appearance of God. Such an epiphany is not garuanteed to change people.
My reading of the Bible indicates that man's need for transformation runs much deeper then what might be always remedied with a visible appearance of God.
Maybe the need of man is deeper. Maybe God just granting everyone a epiphany like He granted the thousands at the top of Mt. Sinai is a superfiscial remedy for man's alienation from God.
-Removed-I wish I did know the Truth. I struggle with these issues your right. At one time I had faith on many levels, and I was convinced I had found the Truth, and I would bore anyone I came in contact with trying to sway them in my direction. Slowly and painfully the illusion started to lift, and I was left not knowing anything. I envy those with unquestioning faith. It's very comforting, and I would love to have it but not at the cost of sticking head in the sand. I want the Real Truth if that can be had. Maybe if the Real Truth stared me in the face I would be to jaded to recognize it. I hope not.
Originally posted by buckkyYes we are eternal. I have seen it for myself.
Even though I'm pleased to hear that you and others don't believe in a Hell, I still have my doubts that you know any more than anyone else. It's a pleasant thought that we live forever in some way and we have nothing to fear from a Hell, but it's just that a pleasant thought. It's based on what ? Don't tell me the Bible because that holds no water with me. E ...[text shortened]... n all your beliefs. They seem compassionate and sane. I like that in a religion or belief.
You cant really be sure until you see it for yourself.
No words will suffice.
Your mind seems ready, which it will need to be to deal with the shock 🙂
Originally posted by buckkyRemember what the Zennists call "The Moment of Great Doubt".
I wish I did know the Truth. I struggle with these issues your right. At one time I had faith on many levels, and I was convinced I had found the Truth, and I would bore anyone I came in contact with trying to sway them in my direction. Slowly and painfully the illusion started to lift, and I was left not knowing anything. I envy those with unquestioning fait ...[text shortened]... Maybe if the Real Truth stared me in the face I would be to jaded to recognize it. I hope not.
To me this implies that we live in doubt and only through our faith (and some other things), we can realize truth and proceed beyond the moment of great doubt.
The psycology of this passage is important to note: As our faith increases, so does our doubt, hence "Great" doubt.
You must start with a strong premise and follow through to its logical conclusions. I'm still following mine.
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Originally posted by SuzianneSuzianne,
[b]
But if the judgment is called [b]"eternal judgment" (Hebrews 6:2) then how can you speak of "after the judgment" ?
What can be "after" something that has no end ?
[/b]
See, I'm not sure of what this means. How can judgment be eternal? I mean you get judged, then go on to your reward or punishment.
This pas forever and ever" ?
[/b]
No, I totally buy into that. But they are not Man.[/b]
You wrote:
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See, I'm not sure of what this means. How can judgment be eternal? I mean you get judged, then go on to your reward or punishment.
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It is a good question. However, could you not also ask the same of "eternal redemption" (Hebrews 9:12) ?
How could redemption be eternal. You get redeemed then go on to your reward of punishment. If you question the logic of "eternal judgment" then should you not also question the soundness of "eternal redemption" ?
And what about the saints being called unto "eternal glory" ?
" ... that they themselves also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." (2 Tim. 2:10)
If you question the soundness of "eternal judgment" (Heb. 9:12) do you also go on to question the reliability of "eternal glory" ?
What about "eternal life" also ?
"In the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before the times of the ages." (Titus 1:2)
If you begin to doubt the reality of "eternal judgment" will you also go on to doubt the reality of "eternal life" ?
Why would you question the former but not the latter ? You have to admit that though you have difficulty understanding how judgment could be eternal, it is the pure word of the Scripture which speaks of it.
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This passage then is wrong ?
"And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10)
You do not believe that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented "day and night forever and ever" ?
No, I totally buy into that. But they are not Man.
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But you know that "the beast" and "the false prophet" refer to men. Right ?
So you consider that only these two human men suffer such a fate, but no other men.
I would only ask you this: The same chapter says that all those whose names were not found written in the book of life, will be sent to the same place - "the lake of fire".
This is in Rev. 20:14,15 - And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
Do you have some reason for believing that the experience of these in verse 15 should be any different from the experience of the two men in verse 10?
Compare: "And the devil, who decieved them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimestone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and THEY will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (v.10)
What would you point to that would suggest to me that the experience of those in verse 15 might be different from those in verse 10 ?
Does the chapter say ANYTHNG to suggest that the two groups should have a fundamentally different experience in the lake of fire ?
Originally posted by jaywillSorry my friend but the "beast" is not a man...
Suzianne,
You wrote:
[b]===================
See, I'm not sure of what this means. How can judgment be eternal? I mean you get judged, then go on to your reward or punishment.
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It is a good question. However, could you not also ask the same of "eternal redemption" (Hebrews 9:12) ?
How could r ...[text shortened]... e a fundamentally different experience in the lake of fire ?
The Wild Beasts of Daniel and of Revelation.
That the beasts described in these books represent political kingdoms or governments, exercising rulership and authority, is clearly stated. (Da 7:6, 12, 23; 8:20-22; Re 16:10; 17:3, 9-12) A consideration of the Biblical passages reveals that, while these political ‘wild beasts’ vary in symbolic form, yet all have certain characteristics in common. All are shown as standing in opposition to God’s rule by the Messianic Kingdom over mankind. They are also depicted as in opposition to God’s “holy ones,” his covenant people, first the Jewish nation, then the Christian congregation. Those specifically named (Medo-Persia and Greece) were major world powers, and the great size attributed to the others or the description of their actions indicates that these too were not minor kingdoms. (It may be noted that subordinate kingdoms are symbolized by horns in some cases.) All the beasts are represented as very aggressive, seeking the dominant position over the nations or peoples within the reach of their power.—Compare Da 7:17, 18, 21; 8:9-11, 23, 24; Re 13:4-7, 15; 17:12-14.
Many commentators endeavor to limit the fulfillment of the visions of the beasts in the book of Daniel so that it does not extend beyond the time when Jesus Christ was on the earth, at which time the Roman Empire was the dominant power. The prophecies themselves, however, make plain that they extend beyond that time. The final forms of the beasts are shown as reaching down to the ‘arrival of the definite time for God’s holy ones to take possession of the kingdom’ in “the appointed time of the end.” Then the Messiah destroys such beastly opposition for all time. (Da 7:21-27; 8:19-25; compare also Re 17:13, 14; 19:19, 20.) It may be noted that Christ Jesus expressly foretold that opposition to the Messianic Kingdom would continue into the time of the end, so that his disciples then preaching that Kingdom would be “objects of hatred by all the nations.” (Mt 24:3, 9-14) This obviously does not allow for any nation, particularly world powers, to be excluded from possible identification with the final forms or expressions of the symbolic wild beasts.
Originally posted by jaywillIt seems you personally believe in your opinion that this is a person where the Bible certianly shows that to be wrong. Ignoring me does not change that fact from the Bible.
Suzzanne,
If you have anything to comment or point about what we were talking about, please continue. I am open and reasonable.
I don't discuss things with galveston anymore. So don't take my non response to him as an elaboration on what I wrote to you.
Agape,
jw
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Originally posted by galveston75I am not ignoring you to change facts in the Bible.
It seems you personally believe in your opinion that this is a person where the Bible certianly shows that to be wrong. Ignoring me does not change that fact from the Bible.
I am ignoring your many Watchtower heresies in order to hold to facts in the Bible.
Originally posted by jaywillWell I thought we were having decent conversations of issues but then you decided to ignor me. I'm confused as why that happened other then you find the scriptures I've shown disagree with what you want them to say, such as the one about the beast and what it is.
I am not ignoring you to change facts in the Bible.
I am ignoring your many Watchtower heresies in order to [b]hold to facts in the Bible.[/b]
Plenty of scriptures that explain that clearly but you have not shown one that shows it's a man. Where did you get that idea and from what scripture?
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Originally posted by galveston75======================
Well I thought we were having decent conversations of issues but then you decided to ignor me. I'm confused as why that happened other then you find the scriptures I've shown disagree with what you want them to say, such as the one about the beast and what it is.
Plenty of scriptures that explain that clearly but you have not shown one that shows it's a man. Where did you get that idea and from what scripture?
Well I thought we were having decent conversations of issues but then you decided to ignor me. I'm confused as why that happened other then you find the scriptures I've shown disagree with what you want them to say, such as the one about the beast and what it is.
Plenty of scriptures that explain that clearly but you have not shown one that shows it's a man. Where did you get that idea and from what scripture?
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I did not read your complaint. I simply did not bother to read your two posts to me.
I think that it is better that we just stop conversing. There comes a time when I believe you have to let people go their way.
But judging from this last post it seems that you are saying that the beast in Revelation 20:10 is NOT a human being. That seems to be the extract of your criticism.
Well, your view is wrong. The beast in Revelation 20:10 is the Antichrist. And the Antichrist is the "son of perdition" (2 Thess. 2:3) and the "MAN of lawlessness" (2 Thess 2:3) .
From the Dictionary - "PERDITION"
per·di·tion (pr-dshn)
n.
1.
a. Loss of the soul; eternal damnation.
b. Hell: "Him the Almighty Power/Hurl'd headlong . . . /To bottomless perdition, there to dwell" (John Milton).
2. Archaic Utter ruin.
While I would not agree with everything in this definition, it is ADAQUATE to get the basic idea across.
So the "SON of PERDITION" is obviously a human MAN of lawlessness who goes into eternal damnation.
"And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10)
This particular "beast" refers to the Antichrist who is the "son of perdition" and the "man of lawlessness".
So I said that, I am ignoring your many Watchtower false teachings in order to HOLD to the facts of the Bible, not to change them.
Now, I will try to remember to pray for you. But I don't think it is too profitable for me to argue with you any longer. I am sorry.
Originally posted by jaywillWell I'm not here to argue with you either but it's an open forum and when I see anyone post an incorrect belief that is not true in the Bible I feel I have the right to speak up and "show from scripture" the differance just as you also can.
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Well I thought we were having decent conversations of issues but then you decided to ignor me. I'm confused as why that happened other then you find the scriptures I've shown disagree with what you want them to say, such as the one about the beast and what it is.
Plenty of scriptures that explain that clearly but you have ...[text shortened]... ink it is too profitable for me to argue with you any longer. I am sorry.
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Originally posted by galveston75You have every right to speak up.
Well I'm not here to argue with you either but it's an open forum and when I see anyone post an incorrect belief that is not true in the Bible I feel I have the right to speak up and "show from scripture" the differance just as you also can.
I know that some "beasts" in Revelation should not be taken as individual persons. I know that. However, in the case of the "beast" mentioned in Rev. 20:10, I am sure that a man is to be understood.
But I just cannot convince you of that. Can I ?