Originally posted by Nemesio
Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]References? “dogs” and “swine” seem pretty generic to me.
Of course they seem generic to you. That's because you are a 21st-century American
reading a document written by a Hellenized Jew for a Jewish audience.
If you call someone a 'swine' in Germany, for example, you might get punched in the
f hes are very attentive,
because they value theological tradition so highly.
Nemesio[/b]
Of course they seem generic to you. That's because you are a 21st-century American
reading a document written by a Hellenized Jew for a Jewish audience.
Not according to Matt 7:8 as I have mentioned. Why would Jesus say that he is here for the world if this were true? Do you think that Jesus is only for the Jews?
If you call someone a 'swine' in Germany, for example, you might get punched in the
face.
The same is true here in America, and the same was true at the time of Jesus. Hence the term “generic.”
As for my references, my primary reference is the citations in the NAB, but you can
read any study of 1st-century Jews and discover the tensions that they had with the
Gentiles, as well as their common epithets. Read the Dead Sea Scrolls, for one. Lots
of tension. Dogs and pigs were [b]unclean animals, things which Jews were
forbidden to eat. Dogs were worse than pigs, in that they were scavenging carrion
eaters.[/b]
I understand that the Jews have a long history of tension with other people. If I call somebody a dick today, that is accepted as an insult pretty much everywhere, would you agree? I’m sure there were Jewish people who called other Jewish people pigs and dogs.
You'll find that the first manual for Christians, the Didache (dating from about 110 CE)uses the term 'dogs' for the unbaptized and cites St Matthew 7:6 specifically. So,
who do you think knows better: 2nd-century Christians or you? I note that 2 Peter 2:22 also makes use of the same two metaphors in reference to people who teach falsely about Jesus, although in a different context.
150 years is a long time. Do you think fashion stays the same? When I was growing up, before the rap craze, to call somebody a dog was an insult. Nowadays it’s a compliment.
You know I know this. But you didn't read what I wrote. I said the [b]Jewish-Christianaudience. We know from Galatians that there was a group of Christians who were of Jewish origin who did not want to fraternize with Gentile Christians. St Paul was not happy about this and chastized them. This passage likely derives from that tradition,
either as a perversion of something Jesus actually said, or something stuffed in His mouth.Either way, when the Gentiles got a hold of it (after the fall of the Jewish-Christian Churchwith the death of St James, the brother of the Jesus), they reinterpretted it (as the earlyChurch Fathers indicate), to be an admonition against thickheaded Christians. That is, ifa Christian is being stubborn and insistent, then 'dust off your sandals.'[/b]
Both St Paul and Jesus taught the same thing in this regard. Christians should avoid the wicked.
Matt 8:21-22 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Here Jesus tells his disciple to renounce his own dad because he was wicked as well as his friends.
Jesus also says somewhere (can’t remember where right now) that he who doesn’t give up his close relatives for him if need be is not worthy of him. The message is clear. Avoid the wicked.
St Paul is clear on this as well.
"Do not be misled: Bad company corrupts good character." (1 Corinthians 15:33)
"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?" (2 Corinthians 6:14).
Thessalonians 5:22, "Abstain from all appearance of evil."
Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethern, mark them which causes diversions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which yee have learned; and avoid them.
You cannot read a 2000-year old document and expect to understand its contents. You
need to study the people who studied the texts of the Bible, the writings of the early
Church Fathers if you ever want to get a sense of who the audience was and how the
texts were received. In this vein, the Roman and Eastern Churches are very attentive,
because they value theological tradition so highly.
I appreciate your knowledge of the ancient scripture. It seems like you are always getting me to mess up my sleep schedule to research something new in the scripture. 🙂 I still don't find your interpretation of Matt 7:6 convincing however. It seems like you put an awful lot of words in Jesus’ mouth. Sometimes it is best just to read what is there and not try so hard to force fit it into your own view.