Originally posted by robbie carrobie perhaps it was an optical illusion. Surely God could create the illusion that the sun stood still?
An optical illusion is not literal truth. I have at no point denied how the "movement of the sun" appears from our earth-bound perspective--or what people might have believed, based on such perspective in ancient days. It is simply an example of a Biblical statement that is not literal truth. One can call it a figure of speech, an optical illusion, or an ancient misbelief. But it is not literal truth. It is simply an example to show that Biblical literalism fails.
Originally posted by vistesd An optical illusion is not literal truth. I have at no point denied how the "movement of the sun" appears from our earth-bound perspective--or what people might have believed, based on such perspective in ancient days. It is simply an example of a Biblical statement that is not literal truth. One can call it a figure of speech, an optical illusion, ...[text shortened]... . But it is not literal truth. It is simply an example to show that Biblical literalism fails.
It would be the literal truth from the perspective of the writer...
Originally posted by AThousandYoung It would be the literal truth from the perspective of the writer...
Only if you're doing a play of words with "literal"! But most Biblical literalists (at least all the ones that I have encountered) treat "literal" as "actual/factual". Okay, the next time I encounter an argument that the Bible is "literally" true, I will ask if they mean that everything reported in the Bible is "actually/factually" true. 🙂
Originally posted by vistesd An optical illusion is not literal truth. I have at no point denied how the "movement of the sun" appears from our earth-bound perspective--or what people might have believed, based on such perspective in ancient days. It is simply an example of a Biblical statement that is not literal truth. One can call it a figure of speech, an optical illusion, ...[text shortened]... . But it is not literal truth. It is simply an example to show that Biblical literalism fails.
On the contrary my learned friend, if one is able to utilise the very laws of physics and manipulate them in such a way as to form an optical illusion it is truth. Does not light itself refract when it comes upon water? Is it not giving the impression of an illusion and yet its truth at the same time? There is no failure on the part of Joshua or the literalism of the Biblical account, only what we seek to project upon it from our own limited and imperfect perspective. God is great.
Originally posted by vistesd You miss the point. If the sun actually stopped, how would that make the day (daylight) last any longer? As far as I know, the length of an earth day is determined by the rotation of the earth. Do you dispute that was the case in the time of Joshua?
EDIT:
[b]What happens to those in the camp when they find out the sun actually stopped in the sky, th ...[text shortened]... not the actual, literal center? And that the sun then only “metaphorically” orbits the earth?
If the sun actually stopped, how would that make the day (daylight) last any longer? If the sun is up, then it is day.
When it goes down, it is night.
The longer it's in the sky, the longer the day.
You do realize that this is precisely a poetic (metaphorical) statement, yes? Is it?
And that the sun then only “metaphorically” orbits the earth? Are you sure?
Or are you basing your 'knowledge' on the statements of others?
What is the formula for the curvature of the earth, exactly?
Originally posted by FreakyKBH [b]If the sun actually stopped, how would that make the day (daylight) last any longer? If the sun is up, then it is day.
When it goes down, it is night.
The longer it's in the sky, the longer the day.
You do realize that this is precisely a poetic (metaphorical) statement, yes? Is it?
And that the sun then only “metaphorically” o ...[text shortened]... edge' on the statements of others?
What is the formula for the curvature of the earth, exactly?
Originally posted by vistesd Only if you're doing a play of words with "literal"! But most Biblical literalists (at least all the ones that I have encountered) treat "literal" as "actual/factual". Okay, the next time I encounter an argument that the Bible is "literally" true, I will ask if they mean that everything reported in the Bible is "actually/factually" true. 🙂
EDIT: Are you jerkin' my chain, ATY?
I am not jerking your chain. It is my belief that quite a lot of the Bible is true from the perspective of the writer. The writer believed what he wrote, but he might have been mistaken.
One example from non-Biblical source is the dragon Typhon from Greek mythology. Typhon was probably a giant volcano explosion at Thera. From a distance it looked like a giant glowing, smoky, fiery monster with many heads bursting out of a mountain. Volcanoes attract lightning so...this is probably where the Zeus vs Typhon story comes from.
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (OP)
"Sheol – Old Testament Hebrew Word / Hades – New Testament Greek Word (Both words are speaking of the same place)"
"This place is in the center of the earth or globe. The Bible suggests that Sheol or Hades is downward (Ezekiel 32:21, 27; Numb. 16:30-35) and that God’s dwelling place is upward (Job 37:22; Isa. 14:31; Psalms 121:9; Duet. 32:22; Job 11:8). The term’s grave, pit and hell all translate sheol in the Old Testament. The context determines their meaning. The context can point to the grave and also the actual compartment of the departed spirit. The Bible also teaches that there were originally four compartments in this great cavern in the center of the earth.
Compartment Number One:
• Compartment of judgment, suffering & torment (see Psalm 9:17; Luke 16:23-24)
• The place where all the unsaved went when they died during the Old Testament era. This is where the unsaved still go today when they die (see Prov. 15:24 Psalm 9:17; 86:13; Isa. 14:9; Ezekiel 32:21; Luke 16:23).
• Later they will be resurrected to finally be judged in the Lake of Fire throughout eternity (see Revelation 20:14-15).
• The English word “hell” is also used in reference to a final judgment in the Lake of Fire (see Mark 9:42-48; Matt. 10:28). The actual Greek word used to describe the Lake of Fire is the word “Gehennah.” It was compared to the garbage dump outside Jerusalem that continually burned with refuge.
• There is a great gulf between these first two compartments, which cannot be bridged (See Luke 16:26).
Compartment Number Two:
• Compartment of comfort, joy and bliss (see Luke 16:25)
• The place where Christ went when He died (Psalms 16:10; Acts 2:27).
• The place where all the saved of the Old Testament era went prior to the cross and resurrection of Christ (Psalms 139:8; Luke 16:22).
• The place where Jesus said that He would be with the thief (see Luke 23:43).
• This compartment called “paradise” was emptied out after Christ’s resurrection (see Ephesians 4:8-10).
• This is when the Paradise compartment was transferred to Heaven (2 Cor. 12:4). When we die today, as a believer, we go up to paradise or Heaven and not down to the place called Hades (2 corinthians 5:8; Phil. 1:21; Rev. 6:9).
• This place was also called Abraham’s bosom because Abraham went to this place because of His faith in God’s revelation about salvation (Luke 16:22).
Compartment Number Three:
• Compartment where the wicked angelic spirits are imprisoned (Jude vs. 6).
• These were the angelic spirits who tried to destroy the line of Christ in the days of Noah (see 1 Peter 3:18-19).
• This was the place called “Tartarus” (2 Peter 2:4). The English word “hell” is actually rendered Tartarus. This is the only place where we see this word.
• Jesus went to “preach” to these wicked spirits (1 Pet. 3:19-20). He did not go into this place to fight them. His message was one of victory through the cross and His soon resurrection.
Compartment Number Four:
• Compartment where the demonic spirits will be released during the future Tribulation Period (Rev. 9:1-3).
• The place where Satan will be cast during the Millennium or 1,000 year reign of Christ (see Revelation 20:1-3; Isaiah 14:9,15).
• This is called the bottomless pit or “pit of abyss.” It is that compartment or place in Hades, which is at the center of the earth. This is why it is called the bottomless pit. It’s because there is ceiling in every direction due to its center location in the heart of the earth.
Today there are only three compartments that remain open in this place called Sheol or Hades due to the resurrection of Christ and the emptying out of the second compartment. However, the compartment of the lost is growing due to the many people who are on the broad, which leads to this place (Matthew 7:13-14). It is true: “hell (sheol) hath enlarged itself” (Isaiah 5:14)." http://www.bereaninternetministry.org/Charts/Hades.doc
__________________________
Comments: The crucifixion of Christ is the central focus of human history. His substitutionary spiritual death [separation from God the Father] provided the only acceptable sacrifice for the sins of the world: past, present and future. "He [the Father] made Him [Christ] who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Corinthians 5:21) People today are still trying to impress God by adding their own good works and/or morality to Christ's magnificent sacrifice. The Word of God says: "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved." (Acts 16:31) Salvation and eternal life is available by faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing. God will not coerce your choice; its entirely your volitional responsibility. The crux temporal issue is not atheism vs. agnosticism vs. theism vs.religious ritual without reality.
It is your personal acceptance or rejection of a grace [free] gift paid for in full by Jesus Christ. The moment of your physical death seals your personal decision for eternity. Because of His Divine Integrity [His Divine Attributes of Justice; Righteousness and Immutability] He can neither deny Himself nor alter your personal choice. Yes, I do realize this will not become a well received thread.
However, I wouldn't be doing those of you who have not yet believed in Christ any favors by sugar coating your options or by withholding the facts regarding their diametrically opposed eternal consequences. Objectively focused, relevant questions will be answered in the sequence asked during the days and weeks ahead. For your own sake, please ponder the information given above. Thank you. -GB"
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby The crucifixion of Christ is the central focus of human history.
As I asked previously, how can this assertion be even remotely true for the countless billions of humans who have created this 'human history' and who do not share your Christian religious beliefs about the significance of the crucifixion of Christ?
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby Salvation and eternal life is available by faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing. God will not coerce your choice; its entirely your volitional responsibility.
If this is true, and there is no coercion or no attempt to coerce, what is all the stuff about "Hell" and the "Lake of Fire" for? What is its purpose? If extortionists say to a shopkeeper that they want him to do X, and that the consequence of non-compliance is the shop being burnt down leading to a complete loss of livelihood, is doing X "entirely [the shopkeeper's] volitional responsibility" and are the extortionists not coercing the shopkeeper's choice?
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby It is your personal acceptance or rejection of a grace [free] gift paid for in full by Jesus Christ. The moment of your physical death seals your personal decision (choice) for eternity.
I am trying to understand, what is for me, your incoherent take on human nature. Can you give us an example from your own life of where you simply made a decision or choice to believe something that you did not find credible and, in fact, just did not believe? A genuine example from you might help me to understand your notion of "choosing" or "deciding" ~ carried out in the absence of perceived credibility and without someone being convinced ~ upon which your repeated assertions about "salvation" are almost completely dependent.
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby I wouldn't be doing those of you who have not yet believed in Christ any favors by sugar coating your options or by withholding the facts regarding their diametrically opposed eternal consequences.
Forget about whether you are sugar coating it or not, you are not doing anyone any favours by refusing to discuss your claims or to answer fundamental questions about your assertions.
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (OP)
[b]"Sheol – Old Testament Hebrew Word / Hades – New Testament Greek Word (Both words are speaking of the same place)"
"This place is in the center of the earth or globe. The Bible suggests that Sheol or Hades is downward (Ezekiel 32:21, 27; Numb. 16:30-35) and that God’s dwelling place is upward (Job ...[text shortened]... s and weeks ahead. For your own sake, please ponder the information given above. Thank you. -GB"[/b]
If you are truly concerned about the fate of non-believers here why don't you stop posting all this absolute garbage about literal caverns underground with these compartments holding various entities and this latent threat that if people don't accept what you say they will be burt alive for eternity by some claimed hyper-benevolent yet super-sadistic mega-being who is clearly the most inbelievably cruel individual anyone can imagine.
This is not the gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ, it is a construct of errors driven in this forum by your personal vanity and it brings the actual gospel into disrepute.
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21 Sep '15 14:431 edit
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (OP)
[b]"Sheol – Old Testament Hebrew Word / Hades – New Testament Greek Word (Both words are speaking of the same place)"
"This place is in the center of the earth or globe. The Bible suggests that Sheol or Hades is downward (Ezekiel 32:21, 27; Numb. 16:30-35) and that God’s dwelling place is upward (Job ...[text shortened]... s and weeks ahead. For your own sake, please ponder the information given above. Thank you. -GB"[/b]
Comments: The crucifixion of Christ is the central focus of human history. His substitutionary spiritual death [separation from God the Father] provided the only acceptable sacrifice for the sins of the world: past, present and future. "He [the Father] made Him [Christ] who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Corinthians 5:21) People today are still trying to impress God by adding their own good works and/or morality to Christ's magnificent sacrifice. The Word of God says: "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved." (Acts 16:31) Salvation and eternal life is available by faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing. God will not coerce your choice; its entirely your volitional responsibility. The crux temporal issue is not atheism vs. agnosticism vs. theism vs.religious ritual without reality.
It is your personal acceptance or rejection of a grace [free] gift paid for in full by Jesus Christ. The moment of your physical death seals your personal decision for eternity. Because of His Divine Integrity [His Divine Attributes of Justice; Righteousness and Immutability] He can neither deny Himself nor alter your personal choice. Yes, I do realize this will not become a well received thread.
GB, with this I agree 98%...🙂
I disagree with eternal torment.
"Sheol"
07 Sep '15 21:42
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