Sin's Damage to the Human Mind

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yes he does:

Firstly, the spiritual enemy of God and man Satan, has blinded the thoughts of those who do not believe the Gospel.

[b]You and I both know you're fully cognizant about the gospel, so the concept that you are helplessly blinded is false.
Tell that to sonship:
[quote]Unbelievers often simply cannot think right about C ...[text shortened]... difference being that I try my best to base my beliefs on the evidence. You and sonship do not.[/b]

Those that don't believe are blinded.

The problem here is that the issue of blindness is stretched beyond the context from which it is taken.

Let's keep it simple. Whatever it is in this life that persuades you that the gospel isn't true is what blinds you. Whatever blinds one to the truth of God's Word is a lie, and is blinding.

The meaning of 2 Corinthians 4:4 is simple. The god of this world, Satan, blinds the mind of those who refuse to believe for the purpose of preventing them from seeing the light of the gospel.

That's it. That's all there is to it. All that's left is for us to argue about it till next week! 😉

Originally posted by josephw
Those that don't believe are blinded.

The problem here is that the issue of blindness is stretched beyond the context from which it is taken.

Let's keep it simple. Whatever it is in this life that persuades you that the gospel isn't true is what blinds you. Whatever blinds one to the truth of God's Word is a lie, and is blinding.

The meaning of 2 ...[text shortened]... 's it. That's all there is to it. All that's left is for us to argue about it till next week! 😉

That's a nice self reinforcing delusion you have there.

Originally posted by sonship
At least I take a position.

You say that like its necessarily a good thing. It isn't.

You tend to just quiz the theist in a maneuver to place all the burden off of the atheist and onto the theist.
I quiz the person making a positive claim. If you make a positive claim you should be able to substantiate it. If you can't you shouldn't be making it.

There is really not much more to your boasted greater smarts than just keeping little quiz questions coming, hoping to pounce on some little inconsistency.
There is a lot more to my boasted greater smarts than that. And I mostly pounce on big inconsistencies by the way.

This seems to me the remark of someone in a kind of despair of giving up all hope that the truth about God could ever be known.
Exactly. Your stance in your OP is that nobody can ever know the truth and we must give up in despair because we are deluded by Satan. I am just trying to help you realize that such an argument applies equally well to yourself. But apparently you don't have the smarts to get the point however many times I repeat it.

In too many other areas of life a person does not throw up his hands and decide NO possible choice can be made from SO many alternatives.

You weigh the comparisons. You make your best choice.
You did that in many arenas.
You did that in choosing what profession to work.
Perhaps you did that in choosing a place of education.

In many areas, you did not even have ALL possibilities at hand. But you soberly reflected and made what you thought was the best choice.
And ultimately you should be able to either give satisfactory reasons for why you made your choice, or admit that it was arbitrary. Making up excuses after the fact is what is dishonest. Especially when those excuses don't make sense.

I have done that between [b]Jesus and Thor.
I have decided that Jesus is more believable.[/b]
And I have decided that Thor is more believable. Now what? Why do you start a thread claiming that I am the deluded one. Why don't you admit that you are equally likely to be the deluded one? Is there any way for us to know which of us is right by rational discussion, or is the possible delusion so great that rationality is simply not a solution?

Sin's Damage to the Human Mind includes all humans, of which I am one also.
Yet you strongly imply that you are less damaged, or at least able to see and understand something that you claim I am not.

The difference is that I come to The Great Physician to be saved.
You must consider that a weakness of some kind.
No, I consider it a sign of madness. Your mind is so damaged you are starting to hallucinate. And you cannot deny it as a mad man cannot easily distinguish hallucination from reality.

If I asked you about how material evolved to gradually become conscious and aware of itself, I don't think you could answer, without question marks aimed at me.
Not in detail no.

I on the other hand would say the Ultimate Creator and Source of all being has consciousness. And we humans are created in the image and likeness of this Uncreated and Eternal God.
You may say that, but it isn't an answer to the question. Its basically saying 'by magic'.

The main purpose of this thread is to explain from God's revelation, that what was "very good" out from His creative power, became damaged.
But how do you with your damaged mind know all this? How do you know it is not a delusion? What makes you think your madness is less than mine, especially given that I am clearly more rational than you.

Originally posted by twhitehead

You say that like its necessarily a good thing. It isn't.

Maybe you don't like what is being asserted, so you yourself assert that to assert is not necessarily a good thing.

So your own assertion according to your own view is not necessarily a good thing.

I quiz the person making a positive claim. If you make a positive claim you should be able to substantiate it. If you can't you shouldn't be making it.

Evidence is not persuasion. And wouldn't surprise me if the Christian ever made you bar for substantiating a claim.

This goes back to the complaint "You have no yet forced me to believe you."

There is a lot more to my boasted greater smarts than that. And I mostly pounce on big inconsistencies by the way.

No, I think it is mostly little things.
I suspect you to opt out on providing real sustantial alternative explanations.

Like here below:

If I asked you about how material evolved to gradually become conscious and aware of itself, I don't think you could answer, without question marks aimed at me.

Not in detail no.

Not in detail and not much in generalities either.
So I make an assertion - WE created human beings, function like the uncreated eternal Creator who designed us.

This seems to me the remark of someone in a kind of despair of giving up all hope that the truth about God could ever be known.

Exactly. Your stance in your OP is that nobody can ever know the truth and we must give up in despair because we are deluded by Satan.

No my remark was concerning that particular dodge you made. Too many other people would know better than to attempt to lump Thor and Jesus together as the same kind of thing.

So don't try to drag all other people into your boo boo.

I am just trying to help you realize that such an argument applies equally well to yourself.

I never attempted to say I was not human or I was not a human damaged by sin in the mind.

But I think a healthier thinking person should know that Thor and Jesus have considerable differences.

Maybe it serves your purpose to neutralize the effect of Jesus by imagining that Jesus is just like the Norse mythological stongman with a hammer.

ie. "Ah, that, that feels better."

You may find some comfort in dismissing the New Testament as on par to stories about Thor. I think more sober minded thinkers would discern a difference.

Can you quote me two or three significant things supposedly said by Thor?
I mean without going on Google.

Maybe a comparison with Mohammed or Buddha or Confucius would have been somewhat more in the ball park of sober thinking.

But apparently you don't have the smarts to get the point however many times I repeat it.

And I repeat - Evidence is not persuasion.
And I expect you to always complain that a Christian has not yet [i[forced[/i] you to believe the Gospel.

Rigorous proof, I don't think is necessary. Evidence that sin has damaged our minds is not lacking. The one example I gave, apart from Christ's words was what I said about TV in the US.

I said that what was X-Rated pornigraphic material 50 years ago can now be seen regularly on prime time entertainment TV. You wonder what people are thinking.

The moral codes governing what could be broadcast on TV in graphic pictures and language has plunged downward dramatically. The fornication, the adultery, the explicit and graphic sexual content of mainstream TV in the US would have been the X-Rated pornography of several decades ago.

There is something wrong in the thinking of the providers, consumers, and profiteers of this filth.

If you argue that this decline in morality represents no damage upon the mind I would say you're in denial. I would compare such rationalization to a person hanging around in a stinky bathroom so long that he no longer detects the stench of it.

Sin has damaged the human mind. And Jesus spoke the truth when He taught that we are DEFILED by the things which proceed out of our hearts apart from God's saving work on them -

"For out of the heart come evil reasonings, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witnessings, blasphemies. These are the things which defile the man ..." (Matt. 15:19,20a)

If we splurge on such, feasting our imaginations even in entertainment, our minds are being darkened and damaged. More and more we see on the news reports of people losing self control.

The loss of self control is not the sign of a healthy mind.
And while everyone is not displaying a lack of self control.
The evidence of it being on the rise should not be ignored.

And I am not excluding religious fanaticism.
The exploitation of privacy on YouTube videos shows a lust for catching people in embarressing moments. This and that went "viral" often includes words or deeds done which should have remained private. It seems the growing number of gossipers and peeping tom types are on a high tech surge.

Sin is still working its damage on human minds.

And I have decided that Thor is more believable. Now what?

Now you congratulate yourself for your clever debating trick.
And you make a silly fool out of yourself to probably many readers.

While you at it you can name me perhaps four major contemporary historians who would argue that history knew of a person Thor from the Scandinavian countries.

Where was he born?
Where did he work and live?
How did he die and where?
Who were his pupils or disciples or advocates who would vouch for his historical existence?
What has been his impact on culture?

Do you have any words he was recorded to have said ?
What are they?

If you find Thor more realistic why not start a thread here on why the Spirituality related to Thor is realistic than that based on the New Testament.

Maybe you could try to do so without excuses and several question marks on little distractions from the main issue.

Why do you start a thread claiming that I am the deluded one.

You poor attention starved fellow. My writing on this subject will eventually be discussing the positive aspects of healing of the mind through believing into Jesus Christ and walking with Him.

You are not the center of this thread's discussion.

Originally posted by googlefudge
That's a nice self reinforcing delusion you have there.

How do you know?

Originally posted by sonship
I suspect you to opt out on providing real sustantial alternative explanations.

I am not a liar and I don't make stuff up when I don't know the answer. If I don't have an explanation for something, I say so. That doesn't make your explanation better than my position of no explanation. It isn't better. It is only better if you are correct. You are not. A wrong explanation is worse than no explanation.

I never attempted to say I was not human or I was not a human damaged by sin in the mind.
But I think a healthier thinking person should know that Thor and Jesus have considerable differences.
You just contradicted yourself. First you claim that you said we are equally damaged, then in the next sentence you are claiming I am more damaged than you.

Maybe it serves your purpose to neutralize the effect of Jesus by imagining that Jesus is just like the Norse mythological stongman with a hammer.
To me, they are the same. They are both mythological.

I think more sober minded thinkers would discern a difference.
There you go again trying to claim you are less damaged than me. But on what basis? How does your damaged mind know this? How do you differentiate 'sober minded thinkers' from the mad people?

Can you quote me two or three significant things supposedly said by Thor?
I mean without going on Google.
Can you explain why I should need to? Will that stop Jesus from being a mythology? Or is Jesus' supposed importance that he is a mythology with memorable quotes?

And I expect you to always complain that a Christian has not yet forced you to believe the Gospel.
The problem with you, is you always address the point you expect me to make and never address the points I do make. Given that your expectations are usually wrong, you end up having a conversation with an imaginary person.

Evidence that sin has damaged our minds is not lacking.
Evidence that your mind is damaged is not lacking. What is lacking is evidence that sin is the cause and not Thors henchmen. Also lacking is evidence that my mind is damaged.

There is something wrong in the thinking of the providers, consumers, and profiteers of this filth.
And you know this how, given that your mind is damaged?

If you argue that this decline in morality represents no damage upon the mind I would say you're in denial.
Yes, you claim everyone is mad but you. Then you deny that you made such a claim. Learn to own your claims.

You poor attention starved fellow. My writing on this subject will eventually be discussing the positive aspects of healing of the mind through believing into Jesus Christ and walking with Him.

You are not the center of this thread's discussion.
Nevertheless, your thread starts off with the claim that you are right and I am wrong and that I cannot ever hope to prove I am right because I am deluded. Deny it all you like but that is your obvious intention with your OP.
My counter point is that I am right and you are wrong and you cannot hope to prove otherwise because you are deluded.

[edit]You keep asking for rational reasons why Thor should be more believable than Jesus, and you suggest I start a thread on it etc. But you have forgotten the premise that you have been blinded by Thors minions and I cannot hope to persuade you of Thors superiority. In fact your denial speaks volumes about your blindness. Every time you deny it, it confirms that I am on the right path to the truth.

Originally posted by sonhouse

It is simply ridiculous that a real deity would be so worried about whether humans believed in it or not.

I don't know why you think this. It is like saying "A REAL mother would not care if the child reached for the milk bottle or reached for a red hot frying pan."

God cares because God is love.
God cares because God created man in His own image and according to His own likeness.

"A REAL God wouldn't care" is a militant Deism which you can hold. But I think no one in Deism manifests a Deist's god's apathetic attitude the way Jesus manifests the care of His Father's attitude.


Maybe you say "A read deity wouldn't care" because you assume any such care in the heart of God is purely self aggrandizing.

He cares because He is the One upholding all creation and knows what is needed for the maximum well-being of all His creatures.

He cares because He cares about truth and justice.

As I read about the passion of Christ before His redemptive death it is evident that He did not take an apathetic attitude. He did not manifest that the Father's attitude was apathetically "Who Cares?"

He cares enough to wish eternity of fellowship and communion with us.

twhitehead:

I am not a liar and I don't make stuff up when I don't know the answer.

Yes, you claim everyone is mad but you. Then you deny that you made such a claim. Learn to own your claims.

Can someone quote me where I used the word "mad" ?

Can someone quote me where I said something like -

"You're ALL MAD except ME" ?

Can someone quote me where I wrote something like - "I am the only one not MAD" ?

Originally posted by sonship
Can someone quote me where I used the word "mad"?

Can someone quote me where I said something like -

"You're ALL MAD except ME" ?

Can someone quote me where I wrote something like - "I am the only one not MAD" ?

Go and read your OP.
I have not said you used the word "mad", but that is essentially what your OP says. And you make it quite clear in the rest of the thread that you believe that you have insight where others do not and have managed to shake off the madness at least to some extent.

[edit]I did err in the 'everyone but you' bit. I was over exaggerating. But you certainly are essentially claiming that anyone who disagrees with you is blinded by Satan and cannot think straight about certain subjects (mad).

My Op Edited -

1.) Fallen man's mind has been damaged by sin.
2.) The intelligent sinner's mind has been damaged.
3.) And the not especially intelligent sinner's mind is also damaged.

4.) In this thread I will document what forms this manifests itself according to the Bible.

5.) Firstly, the spiritual enemy of God and man Satan, has blinded the thoughts of those who do not believe the Gospel.

6.) "In whom the god of this world has BLINDED THE THOUGHTS of the unbelievers that the illumination of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. might not shine on them." (2 Cor. 4:4)

7.) Unbelievers often simply cannot think right about Christ because of a blinded thinking process. Paul says the blinded thoughts cause a "veil" like covering over their spiritual eyes.

8.) "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those who are perishing, In whom the god of this age has blinded the thoughts of the unbelievers ..." (v.3,4a)

9.) Man has physical eyes. But man has inward spiritual eyes as well. The "god of this world" is the evil spirit of Satan, invisible, deceptive, rebellious against God to the uttermost, has BLINDED the thinking of people.

10.) You can see that some simply cannot discern the divine glory of Christ because their thinking about Jesus has been blinded.

Let me clarify the 10 points of my OP.

1.) Fallen man's mind has been damaged by sin.

"Fallen man" would include all human beings since Adam the first man.
I would be included of course.

2.) The intelligent sinner's mind has been damaged.

This would include all sinners whom we might designate as "intelligent".
I am a sinner also. However judged as to intelligence, would be included in this damage.

3.) And the not especially intelligent sinner's mind is also damaged.

Same as above. I would not be excluded from this damage.

4.) In this thread I will document what forms this manifests itself according to the Bible.

Nothing said here about "I ain't mad."
And "according to the Bible" clues everyone that I will be reasoning from the Bible as God's revelation to man, for the most part.

5.) Firstly, the spiritual enemy of God and man Satan, has blinded the thoughts of those who do not believe the Gospel.

This sentence does not say believers have NOT had their minds damaged by sin. This sentence does not say that I, sonship, because I am a Christian, have escaped any damaged upon the mind because of sin.

This sentence does say that there is a particular blindness inflicted upon the minds of unbelievers.

Nothing here about "I'm not MAD but all you unbelievers are MAD."

If someone wanted to TAKE it that believers have no longer any problem with blindness in the thoughts, latter posts in this thread would not confirm that that is what I meant.

If it was then I would not have quoted, for example, Romans 12:1 where Paul speaking to CHRISTIANS says to them not to be conformed to this world. But rather they should be transformed by the renewing of the mind.

Remember, Paul is writing to Christians in this epistle of Romans

"And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect." (Rom. 12:2)

And far too many OTHER verses speak of the renewing or enlightening of the mind to those who are believers in Jesus Christ.

So far no "You're all MAD. Only I am not the MAD one here."

I stand by what I quoted "according to the Bible" that Satan has blinded the minds of the unbelievers.

6.) "In whom the god of this world has BLINDED THE THOUGHTS of the unbelievers that the illumination of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. might not shine on them." (2 Cor. 4:4)

I was a few years have my thoughts blinded until I repented and turned my heart to Jesus Christ. Then I needed, as Paul wrote, the renewing of the mind. And I still do.

7.) Unbelievers often simply cannot think right about Christ because of a blinded thinking process. Paul says the blinded thoughts cause a "veil" like covering over their spiritual eyes.

I stand by this. Yet, those people who have become Christians still need the renewing of the mind and to have their minds healed from the damage of sin. This is in fact a life long process. No one time event does the job quickly.

Paul says for the Christians to be renewed in the spirit of the mind -

"That you [Christians in Ephesus] put off, as regards your former manner of life, the old man, which is being corrupted according to the lusts of the deceit, And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind and put on the new man, which was created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the reality." (Eph. 4:21,22a)

8.) [b]"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those who are perishing, In whom the god of this age has blinded the thoughts of the unbelievers ..." (v.3,4a)

To those who are in the process of perishing, the need is to turn the heart to believe. When the heart TURNS to the Lord Jesus in prayer as a living Person, the "veil" is taken away.

It is the Lord who actually TAKES AWAY the veil that is blinding the inner eyes of the heart to "see" God.

"But their thoughts were hardened for until the present time the same VEIL remains at the reading of the old covenant, it not being UNVEILED to them that the VEIL is being done away in Christ.

Indeed unto this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. But whenever their heart turns to the Lord, the VEIL is taken away." (2 Cor. 3:14-16)

The blinding veil can be taken away by the living Lord when the heart of the unbeliever TURNS toward the Lord. That is a repenting and changing of the way one thinks. She or he turns from regarding the Lord Jesus as not existent to Him as available and eager to receive the one turning the heart towards Him as a living Person.

9.) Man has physical eyes. But man has inward spiritual eyes as well. The "god of this world" is the evil spirit of Satan, invisible, deceptive, rebellious against God to the uttermost, has BLINDED the thinking of people.

I would not exclude myself from the need to have more sight, more enlightenment and more perception of the riches of Christ.

Nothing here either about "I am the only one around here not MAD "

10.) You can see that some simply cannot discern the divine glory of Christ because their thinking about Jesus has been blinded.

Some of us can see that some simply cannot discern the divine splendor and majesty of Christ's glory because their thinking about Jesus has been blinded.

And those of us who do believe in the Son of God need the renewing of the mind to be more and more conformed to His image. We also need healing and recovery from the damage upon the mind caused by sin.

Originally posted by twhitehead

[edit]I did err in the 'everyone but you' bit. I was over exaggerating.

Humility noted.

The problem with you, is you always address the point you expect me to make and never address the points I do make. Given that your expectations are usually wrong, you end up having a conversation with an imaginary person.

Yea, sometimes I do do something like that.

Originally posted by twhitehead

This reply quotes twhitehead but goes beyond him as an audience as an explanation.

And you make it quite clear in the rest of the thread that you believe that you have insight where others do not and have managed to shake off the madness at least to some extent.

I would not boast that there is no need further for me to have my mind healed by Christ's salvation.

I would not boast that I of my own power "shook off" anything of this damage.

In the passage of Ephesians Paul speaks of putting OFF the old man and putting ON the new man. He is speaking of a humanity. One is OLD in that it is damaged and even getting worse through time. The other is NEW since the resurrection of Christ.

The two are spoken of almost in a word picture of CLOTHING - put on and put off.

This putting off and putting on is a life long transformation. No one not yet born of God can put off that OLD thing in which he is engulfed totally. Once born again, once regenerated there IS the possibility that you can put off the OLD man and begin to put on the new humanity.

This putting ON the new man is a transformation which occurs because of the renewing of "the spirit of the mind" . This a large subject in itself. But you can all see that the MIND is the leading part of the human in this process of renewing.

Putting on the new man is also called putting on Christ.

"As many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:27)

This is not putting on Christ apart from your personality. It is rather putting on Christ as Christ is FILLING your personality.

An analogy: If you put a teabag into hot water the water is transformed to TEA-Water. The water, in a sense, puts on the element of tea.

We are like a cup of hot water. When we are born again Christ, like a heavenly tea bag, is placed down into our very being. As we cooperate to allow the flavor of the tea to permeate the water, the water is gradually transformed into tea water.

As we receive Jesus Christ and cooperate to allow His Spirit to spread into corner after corner after corner of our soul we are putting on Christ. And we are putting on the new man.

Originally posted by sonship
Some of us can see that some simply cannot discern the divine splendor and majesty of Christ's glory because their thinking about Jesus has been blinded.

OK, lets see if you can finally get the point that I have been getting at this whole thread, and that you have been apparently missing completely:
How do you know that I am the one blinded and not you?
I look at you and believe that you have been blinded by religion and cannot see the majesty of reality.
Which of us is blind? How do we sort this out? Will everything I say on the matter be dismissed by you as the ravings of a damaged mind blinded by Satan? Can I equally dismiss anything you say?

Try and answer the above questions and not the questions you think I am going to ask but didn't.