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Originally posted by DeepThought
I'm not suggesting that you take up paganism. That there are parallels is both undeniable and of solely academic interest.
You have to beware of concocted similarities.
These are cooked up comparisons done by "Jesus Mythers" like G A Wells and Earl Doherty.
J Patrick Holding has extensive knowledge of the efforts of the pop culture "Jesus Mythers".
A few YouTubes -
1.) "Christ Mythicism" J P Holding
2.) A Christian Reviews Bill Mahor's Riligulous J P Holding
Though a little off your subject, you might be interested in hearing J P Holding go one on one with Atheist New Testament Textural Critic - Richard Carrier.
There are significant differences, Jesus didn't ride a chariot over battles throwing his spear at unlucky warriors. The big similarity, but also the big difference, is to do with sacral kingship. In the Christian conception of the apocalypse Christ wins.
Related to my OP, before Jesus wins over the kingdoms of this world, He wins over the hearts of some people. This victory is not a coercion. Rather this song lyric portrays how Jesus can subdue the sinner's wild rebellions mind -
"Jesus Lord, I'm captured by Your beauty.
All my heart to Thee I open wide.
Now set free from all religious duty,
Only let me in Thyself abide.
Lord when first I saw Thee in Thy splendor
All self love and glory sank in shame.
Now to Thee, O Lord, I do surrender,
Tasting all the sweetness of Thy Name. "
Here's a singing of this song. It is certainly my personal testimony too.
Jesus Lord I'm Captured By Thy Beauty
In the pagan conception Woden wins, but at the cost of his life, he is eaten by the wolf Fenrir. But some of the gods survive along with some humans who had hidden in the World Tree and a new cycle of life begins. The adversary, Loki, is not the devil, he doesn't represent evil. What breaks out is a feud and when the gods fight the consequences are cosmological. Paganism is a lot harsher, in that not even the gods escape the consequences of Ragnarök, and doesn't have the redemption aspects that Christianity has. Our ancestors don't seem to have held out much hope for the next world.
That's all kind of interesting. But when you come down to history, you have to deal with such phenomenon as the change which took place suddenly in the Jews in Jerusalem.
For centuries they held the 7th day Sabbath as the most sacred day.
Then suddenly a sizable number in Jerusalem begin to treat the next day - "the Lord's Day" as being more important. And why? Because they said it was the day that Jesus rose from the dead.
It is history that a large part of the Jerusalem Jews abruptly switched their more significant day of the week from the 7th day (which they celebrated for over a thousand years) to the FIRST day of the new week. They called it "the Lord's Day". They at least believed that the crucified Messiah, Yeshua (Jesus of Nazareth) had been raised from the dead on this day.
Why did they suddenly change within a year after the crucifixion of Jesus? I would say the answer to that question we can read in the book of Acts.
So we have in this post something I offer very subjective and something I offer objective and historical.
Doesn't it make sense to you that the revelation of God would be both something in history - objective AND something very intimate and subjective to those willing to receive His revelation?
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Originally posted by josephw
Those that don't believe are blinded.
Please allow me to speak from my experience.
I think I was "blinded" before the night I finally called out to the "Lord, ... Lord Jesus"
I do not remember all the arguments I had with one or two Christian friends. However I do remember a lot being "sick with questionings".
Now there is nothing wrong with having questions.
But at some points I refused to pray and refused to open my heart up to God because I was " sick with questionings " toward a Christian here and there in an argumentative way.
The word "SICK" Paul uses there suggests - not healthy. And that, I think, indicates some "damage" to the proper thinking.
First Timothy 6:4
"If anyone .... does not consent to healthy words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the teaching which is according to godliness,
He is blinded with pride, understanding nothing, but is diseased [or sick] with questionings and contentions of words, out of which come envy, strife, slanders, evil suspicions ..."
The Recovery Version says "diseased". I think "sick" conveys the unhealthy state of the sin driven mind.
"Understanding nothing" there cannot literally mean the sinner doesn't understand anything. But concerning God's Gospel nothing is understood as it should be understood - taking into account the spiritual realm and dimension to human life.
The problem here is that the issue of blindness is stretched beyond the context from which it is taken.
Let's keep it simple. Whatever it is in this life that persuades you that the gospel isn't true is what blinds you. Whatever blinds one to the truth of God's Word is a lie, and is blinding.
You can see that above I peppered some Christian friends with questionings to the point that it indicated a kind of disease, a sickness.
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Joseph, cont.
At some point I had to pour out my heart to God Himself.
The meaning of 2 Corinthians 4:4 is simple. The god of this world, Satan, blinds the mind of those who refuse to believe for the purpose of preventing them from seeing the light of the gospel.
Now that I am a believer I still have to go to the Lord for the liberation of my mind in certain areas. This is a life long process. As Proverbs says that the walk of righteousness is like the dawning of the day, growing brighter and brighter.
Witness Lee, the author of "The Life Study of Matthew, Message 9 (LSM) ", wrote:
"To repent is to have a change of mind issuing in regret ... To repent is to have a change in our thinking, our philosophy, our logic. The life of fallen man is absolutely according to his thinking. Everything he is and does is according to his mind. When you were a fallen one, you were directed by your mind. Your mentality, logic, and philosophy governed your way of life. Before we were saved, we were under the direction of our fallen mentality. we were far away from God, and our life was in direct opposition to His will. Under the influence of our fallen mentality, we went farther and farther astray from God. But one day we heard the preaching of the gospel telling us to repent, to have a turn in our thinking, philosophy, and logic."
Both John the Baptist and Jesus spoke to "Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens is at hand." (Matt. 3:2; 4:17)
Harry A Ironside wrote - "This is not merely the acceptance of new ideas in place of old notions. But it actually implies a complete reversal of one's inward attitude."
Repent or change the thinking "for the kingdom of the heavens " is to repent for not being under God's administration. It is to repent or have a change of mind about not being under God's government. It is to change the mind about not being in touch with God Himself so as to be in His kingdom over all things.
I did not repent just to escape from hell to heaven. I repented for not being in the kingdom of God. I repented because of the kingdom of the heavens. That is the kingdom, whose source is not of the world, but of the heavens - the realm of God.
I was subdued to have a change in thinking toward being in and under the administration of God and Christ. "Repent ..., FOR the kingdom of the heavens."
The healing of the damaged mind is simultaneous with turning the mind towards God as the real King, Governor, Lord of the universe. Do you agree?
Originally posted by DeepThoughtSimilar to the Egyptian Osiris.It is an anticlimax that you have light years to go before you demonstrate that Thor and Jesus can be realistically considered about the same.Thunder is the modern word for the Anglo-Saxon name for Thor, the Old Norse name, cf. Donner in German. Thor is the wrong god in the Germanic pantheon to be comparing with Jesus. One needs a god wh ...[text shortened]... dn't done their research. The correct god in that pantheon to attempt to do that with is Woden.
What is your point again?
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Originally posted by SoothfastThat was a typo. I meant 20 centuries not 20 millennia.
Is that all? It already seems like a million millennia.
Right after the fall of Adam though, the effect of sin can be seen on the next generation's mind. Cain, the first murderer, just does not seem to think right.
In a rage of envy he kills his brother Abel.
When confronted by God about the whereabouts of Abel I snorts back -
"I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper? " (Genesis 4:9)
Cain is not thinking right.
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Don't you think there is something wrong, even something sick about Cain's thinking? He has just committed the world's first murder and that his own flesh brother. God's question to him is not because God doesn't know what has happened. Rather it is phrased to give Cain an opportunity to repent. This opportunity Cain apparently spits on and contemptuously argues back to God Himself -
"Am I my brother's keeper?" How does he know where his (just murdered) brothers is? Why should he even be bothered ? Cain's contempt for God is showing as well as his hatred for his kid brother.
The sin that has infested the human race from Adam's fall has begun to damage the conscience and mind of Adam's descendents.
There is never the slightest indication of remorse from Cain.
The only thing he shows sorrow about is his own just punishment.
"And Cain said to Jehovah, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Now You have driven me out this day from the face of the ground, and from Your face I will be hidden; and I will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me." (Gen. 4:14)
This is probably a further indication of the damage of sinning upon his thinking. That is his relentless projection. Because he has killed, he knows how easy it is. His paranoia may be what drove him to think he in will be murdered by everyone.
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The Christian should not think that just because they have repented and received Christ that automatically there is no longer any problem in their mind.
There is the need for the renewing of the mind of all those who are believers. There is the charge that they walk no longer in the vanity of the mind as they walked as unbelievers -
"This therefore I say and testify in the Lord, that you no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk in the vanity of their mind ..." (Eph. 4:17)
Without God's light we do not realize how full of vanity, nonsense and futility our thoughts are.
Because Paul say "no longer" we who are Christians know our minds need renewing by the Holy Spirit.
The effect of the vanity in the mind is further seen in the words
" ... that you no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk in the vanity of their mind, being darkened in their understanding because of the ignorance which is in them, because of the hardness of their heart. Who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lasciviousness to work all uncleaness in greediness." (vs.18,19)
1.) The heart of the unbelievers being hardened towards God causes -
2.) ignorance about living with God and in God's presence
3.) The ignorance causes the understanding to be darkened - "Being darkened in their understanding."
4.) The feeling of the conscience can be dulled and insensative - "Who, being past feeling ..." Sometimes a young person may be bothered in the conscience about a certain sin the first time or two. Afterwards though they become "past feeling". It no longer bothers them. The feeling of shame is no longer there.
Sometimes the feeling of shame may be militantly ignored because the sinner feels that he has no choice but to sin and suppress any feeling in the conscience.
5.) Worse than just suppressing any conviction in the conscience, the sinner may just give themselves over to more and more greedy sinning -
"Who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lasciviousness to work all uncleaness in greediness."
What problems to the mind can the hardened heart towards God cause.
But this exhortation is to Christians. So skipping down a bit to verse 22 Paul says to them " ... And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind." (v.23)
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The next post I hope will be more positively about the verses to follow concerning "the spirit of your mind" . What is that? I'll try to give my understanding.
"But you did not so learn Christ, If indeed you have heard Him and been taught in Him as the reality is in Jesus,
That you put off, as regards your former manner of life, the old man, which is being corrupted according to the lusts of the deceit,
And that you be RENEWED in the spirit of your mind and put on the new man, which was created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the reality." (vs 20-24)
All this has to be examined in light of the whole NT.
Originally posted by sonshipIf the bible is all god has at hand for advancing his causes, then he's a damned lousy salesman.
1.) The heart of the unbelievers being hardened towards God causes -
2.) ignorance about living with God and in God's presence
3.) The ignorance causes the understanding to be darkened - [b]"Being darkened in their understanding."
4.) The feeling of the conscience can be dulled and insensative - "Who, being past feeling ..." Someti ...[text shortened]... e 22 Paul says to them " ... And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind." (v.23) [/b]
Originally posted by sonshipWhen you say: "A large part of the Jerusalem Jews switched over their Sabbeth to the first day of the week.". Do you mean the sect within Judaism that was Christianity, or became Christianity, or are you talking about a wider phenomenon?I'm not suggesting that you take up paganism. That there are parallels is both undeniable and of solely academic interest.
You have to beware of concocted similarities.
These are cooked up comparisons done by "Jesus Mythers" like G A Wells and Earl Doherty.
J Patrick Holding has extensive knowledge of the efforts of the pop cul ...[text shortened]... ve AND something very intimate and subjective to those willing to receive His revelation?
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"And put on the new man ..."
To have the mind renewed one has to come to God willing to have a new beginning. This is a desire to not live as one lived in the past. It is saying "Lord Jesus, I am ready for a new turn. I don't want to live the same way as in the past. I want to have a new beginning in You."
There are man stages of renewal the must be gone through. And that is why Paul said -
"But you did not so learn Christ" He does not mean that they learned everything about Christ once for all. But He means they are in the ongoing development of learning Christ. Like going from grade to grade in school, the renewing of the mind brings us to more and more learning Christ Himself in a subjective way.
"And that you be renwed in the spirit of your mind and put on the new man ..."
The old fallen mind is the leading part of the old man. The spirit of the mind and the renewed mind is the leading part of the new man.
The old fallen mind was damaged and the human spirit was comatose - deadened. The new man has an enlivened and even resurrected human spirit which become "the spirit of the mind" . And the mind being renewed, recovered, healed, enlightened is the leading part of the new man.
The mind minus the human spirit to assist it to ascertain spiritual truths is damaged by sin. The regenerated spirit which is united with the Holy Spirit influences, with the believer's cooperation, to renew the mind. And the renewing of the mind leads to transformation and the putting on of the new man.
This life long process of the mind being renewed is also to "learn Christ". Or it is to learn what it is for Jesus Christ to live in you. Or it is to learn what it means for Jesus Christ to more and more blend with you and live again THROUGH you.
We have time to "learn Christ" after being born again. And we "learn Christ, as the reality is in Jesus" by being willing for Christ to lead us into something new.
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Originally posted by DeepThought
When you say: "A large part of the Jerusalem Jews switched over their Sabbeth to the first day of the week.". Do you mean the sect within Judaism that was Christianity, or became Christianity, or are you talking about a wider phenomenon?
I mean a large number of Jews who were at least cultural followers of the old covenant and Moses, began to have a few sudden and significant changes in their beliefs and practices. The switch to holding the 8th day a higher sacred day than the Sabbath was one.
Because of the historical link it was unavoidable that they first would be viewed as a sect within Judaism.
Paul was called "a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes" (Acts 24:5). And in the Jews who came to hear him in his house said -
" ... for concerning this sect it is indeed known to us that it is spoken against everywhere." (Acts 28:22)
So the churching people of the new covenant were called a sect. Paul before being an apostle considered them a cult to be wiped out.
My point was that five weeks after Jesus was crucified, over ten thousand Jews are claiming Jesus the initiator of a new belief. They were will to give up or alter five strongly traditional Jewish social institutions.
1.) Animal sacrifices since the time of Abraham and Moses were now believed to have been replaced by the ONE atoning death of Jesus. They stopped participating in animal offerings.
2.) They began to teach that one becomes an upstanding member of the community of God by believing in Jesus' resurrection and being baptized in the name of Jesus. This was more prominent "rite of passage" than keeping Moses' laws.
3.) The fifteen hundred year tradition keeping the seventh day Sabbath was overshadowed, abruptly replaced by assembling in the first day of the week. They believed this was the day the Lord Jesus raised from the dead.
4.) The concept of a Messiah changed from only a great military leader to one who suffered and died at the hands of the Romans and was raised from the dead. Previously the Messiah was only to be a political leader to rid them of the Roman imperialism.
5.) They began to speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as a newer concept of the strict monotheism.
These were drastic and abrupt changes for thousands of Jews in Jerusalem.
Originally posted by sonshipIt is understandable that the Jewish religious leadership would look upon Yahshua (Jesus) as a dangerous deceiver and blasphemer by claiming to be God's Son and by breaking the Sabbath law by doing the work of healing on that most sacred day. And His claim to be Lord of the Sabbath and that man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for man as if He had more authority did not set well with them.When you say: "A large part of the Jerusalem Jews switched over their Sabbeth to the first day of the week.". Do you mean the sect within Judaism that was Christianity, or became Christianity, or are you talking about a wider phenomenon?
I mean a large number of Jews who were at least cultural followers of the old covenant and Moses, be ...[text shortened]... rict monotheism.
These were drastic and abrupt changes for thousands of Jews in Jerusalem.
From their point of view, it should be easy to see why they thought Yahshua (Jesus) must be in league with the Devil when it appeared to everyone that He had the ability to cast out demons as well as ignoring their religious traditions and on top of that called them hypocrites and vipers and then disrupted the temple sevices by driving many out and calling it a den of thieves.