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Originally posted by twhiteheadI already am a believer in Thor as a mythological figure.
If I provide such documents, will you become a believer in Thor?
Jesus as the Living Lord and Savior I have met.
My meeting Jesus, though I have not physically seen or heard Jesus, is explained to me. I can match my unusual yet real experience with the teaching of Jesus and the apostles.
Before I learned about the teaching of the possibility to meet Jesus, I met Jesus. Then afterwards I read all of the New Testament and it became evident to me. I said -
"I know what that is talking about now. I know that I have experienced THAT."
For example, in John's Gospel where He said that He would be coming TO His disciples as the Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit.
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever. Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him;
but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you.
Yet a little whole and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live." (John 14:15-19)
1.) The world cannot behold Him, yet His believers can know HIm and behold Him.
I experience this.
2.) He goes away in one sense. Yet in another since He comes to His lovers as "the Spirit of reality".
I experience this.
3.) He comes as a great Comforter . The comfort derived deep within from knowing Him far surpasses any intellectual argument from atheists that God does not exist OR that they can "prove" Thor or Odin is just as believable.
I experience this. And Paul pioneered the way deep into this supernatural walking with Jesus Christ as "another Comforter" , the Spirit of reality". Paul wrote of "the peace which surpasses [or transcends] all understanding (Phil. 4:7)
English Standard Version
And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
New American Standard Bible
And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
After I called on the name of the Lord Jesus, reluctantly (at first) I began to read the New Testament. I had been so blinded by pride by "the god of this world" (Satan), that at first I did not want to read the Bible.
But as I read about these things, to my surprise the pages began to kind of "lighten up". I could read and say " I KNOW what this is talking about. I have experienced this. This certainly explains what has been happening to me. This is wonderful. Someone/s have traveled this road before me."
So not beholding Jesus physically, He certainly was speaking the truth when before His death He said -
"... but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I AM COMING TO YOU." .
So we participate in "the foolishness of preaching" because we want to testify and let others know that Jesus Christ can come to them also. We've been testifying and preaching about this for over 20 millennia.
But it could be all an illusion. And you're a smart guy. Maybe in a few minutes you can give a good argument to knock down 20 centuries of people testifying that Jesus did not leave His lovers as orphans. Jesus comes to us.
Then again .... it could be that the Martians or space aliens did something strange to fool me. Right?
Then again ... it could be that I got hypnotized or drugged or brainwashed or telopathically munipulated. Right?
Then again ... it could be something else besides Jesus and the Bible speaking the truth ... ANYTHING but that. Right ?
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13 Mar 15
Originally posted by sonship[Note:]And I proved my point.
What point did you prove?
You did not prove the point that any logical, consistent series of thoughts is the truth. You did prove that you can arrange a similar series of logically arrived at concepts, which are somewhat consistent and similarly related.
Its yours to learn that not every step by step log ...[text shortened]... before.
It is a principle often repeated - "What you can do, well, why we can also do too."
Capitalizations of Moses and Aaron's pronoun are typos.
I meant "his" or "him" not "His" or "Him".
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Originally posted by twhitehead
Sonship on the other hand will be book ing a flight to Zambia immediately as he feels that it is most likely that the messiah is in Zambia awaiting his arrival.
Your dream that anything, ... any alternative to Jesus and the New Testament speaking the truth, is not amusing. It is not effective and certainly not even interesting.
Ad Infinitum, you only can demonstrate that a man's ability to imagine some plausible alternative to the Son of God coming and speaking truth, is inexhaustible.
You go ahead and run with your 10,000 possible alternative explanations to disprove the New Testament.
Eventually, we all have to trust something.
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Originally posted by twhitehead
Ouch. You stated it in your own post, and you still don't get it.
I guess you are too blinded by your religion to ever understand - even though the point is so simple I bet everyone else reading this has got it. (except perhaps poor RJ).
I get that you can argue "I can sound like I have strong convictions about Thor. And you are blinded if you don't agree."
I didn't just get that you can imitate Christians.
It is an anticlimax that you have light years to go before you demonstrate that Thor and Jesus can be realistically considered about the same.
I get that you can pretend about what is not your authentic feelings about Thor, and think it makes some important point.
You did not prove the point that any logical, consistent series of thoughts is the truth.
No, I didn't, nor did I claim to. Once again, you are responding to what you think I would say, but didn't say.
" I can sound like a disciple of Thor. "
You've demonstrated that.
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I think what we've got from twhitehead is another form of the argument -
Jesus Christ means NOTHING to me.
Wonder Woman of Marvel Comics also means NOTHING to me.
So they are the same.
Or more like this?
Personally, nothing Thor did or said concerns the way I intend to live.
Personally, nothing Jesus said effects in the least how I am going to live.
Jesus and Thor are the same.
Originally posted by sonshipIf that's what you got, then you haven't been paying much attention.
I think what we've got from twhitehead is another form of the argument -
Jesus Christ means NOTHING to me.
Wonder Woman of Marvel Comics also means NOTHING to me.
So they are the same.
Or more like this?
Personally, nothing Thor did or said concerns the way I intend to live.
Personally, nothing Jesus said effects in the least how I am going to live.
Jesus and Thor are the same.
14 Mar 15
Originally posted by sonshipOuch. You stated it in your own post, and you still don't get it.
I guess you are too blinded by your religion to ever understand - even though the point is so simple I bet everyone else reading this has got it. (except perhaps poor RJ).
I get that you can argue "I can sound like I have strong convictions about Thor. And you are blind ...[text shortened]... say. [/quote]
" I can sound like a disciple of Thor. "
You've demonstrated that.
It is an anticlimax that you have light years to go before you demonstrate that Thor and Jesus can be realistically considered about the same.Thunder is the modern word for the Anglo-Saxon name for Thor, the Old Norse name, cf. Donner in German. Thor is the wrong god in the Germanic pantheon to be comparing with Jesus. One needs a god who was sacrificed for some reason. The relevant god in the Germanic pantheon is Woden (aka Odin). He was hanged from the World Tree for nine days as a sacrifice to himself, and spent time in the realm of the dead, from which he returned. In his case he gained wisdom, and learnt twice nine spells, rather than redemption for humanities sins. They didn't have the same concept of sin as Christianity does, the religion worked differently. He was known as the thorn god, Christ had a crown of thorns. There are a number of parallels If I wanted to I think I could make a strong case that they are aspects of one another. I don't intend to do that. My purpose was just to point out that anyone trying to show Thor was Jesus hadn't done their research. The correct god in that pantheon to attempt to do that with is Woden.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadThe question is if you provide some kind of documentation about Thor like that of what Paul wrote in the First Corinthians 15, will I become like you, a believer in Thor ?
Please give an honest answer to the question.
I'll give you as honest of an answer as I am possible to give.
And if you don't think I am being honest, then that will just have to be your problem.
Answer:
Since my coming to know Jesus Christ was a gradual and very personal matter, involving intensely personal circumstances, probably in one post I would not. It would take a whole lot more than a internet paste job.
BUT ... if things worked out in my life in such a way that I eventually realized that things were channeling me in the direction of your Thor, who knows? Maybe I would become like you, a disciple of Thor.
You can get to work and give it your best shot:
1.) Show me, like Jesus Christ, Thor looked beyond my faults and saw my needs.
2.) Show me that Thor has been watching me all my life and knows my struggles and deepest valleys.
3.) Show me Thor is capable of coming to me, and even INTO my innermost spiritual being.
You could start by producing a teaching of Thor something like John 14:23
"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him."
Show me something that let's me know WHAT has happened to me when suddenly, God becomes real to me subjectively.
I guess this is my honest way of telling you that Jesus Christ is a real tough act to follow. But if you want to give your gospel of Thor the best shot you have, go ahead.
But most of all, my life began to change. And those changes were not the result of MY power. Otherwise I would have done the changing MINUS having to call Jesus Lord.
But His gentleness as the Lord conquered me. I got subdued by this Man, God's Son.
So if you think a little bit of objective info somehow looking like a passage of the New Testament will do it, you'll be disappointed because I did not come to Jesus Christ quite that easily.
But if what have on Thor is real, as real as Christ, maybe I would become Thor's follower.
Jesus, is a very tough act to follow. Now that's my honest answer. And if you don't think that is my honest reply then the heck with you. You cannot get any more of a gut level honest answer than that.
Jesus Christ is a tough act to follow. But you go ahead and give it your best shot if you think you can get the ball rolling for me to drop Christ and pick up Thor.
Now, for the future posts, when it comes to this blindness matter, I will speak more of my OWN experience. I re-call some things about the blindness of the mind that I had as an agnostic / deist kind of sceptic of the Christian gospel.
I will be applying passages to the mind damage of sin to my own experience, past and present.
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Originally posted by DeepThought
Thunder is the modern word for the Anglo-Saxon name for Thor, the Old Norse name, cf. Donner in German.
FASCINATING !!
That and a $1.78, will get you a medium coffee at Seven/Eleven.
Thor is the wrong god in the Germanic pantheon to be comparing with Jesus.
Okay. You learn something everyday?
One needs a god who was sacrificed for some reason. The relevant god in the Germanic pantheon is Woden (aka Odin). He was hanged from the World Tree for nine days as a sacrifice to himself, and spent time in the realm of the dead, from which he returned. In his case he gained wisdom, and learnt twice nine spells, rather than redemption for humanities sins. They didn't have the same concept of sin as Christianity does, the religion worked differently. He was known as the thorn god, Christ had a crown of thorns. There are a number of parallels If I wanted to I think I could make a strong case that they are aspects of one another. I don't intend to do that. My purpose was just to point out that anyone trying to show Thor was Jesus hadn't done their research. The correct god in that pantheon to attempt to do that with is Woden.
Let me think on this a bit. I am being called away for the moment.
14 Mar 15
Originally posted by sonshipI'm not suggesting that you take up paganism. That there are parallels is both undeniable and of solely academic interest. There are significant differences, Jesus didn't ride a chariot over battles throwing his spear at unlucky warriors. The big similarity, but also the big difference, is to do with sacral kingship. In the Christian conception of the apocalypse Christ wins. In the pagan conception Woden wins, but at the cost of his life, he is eaten by the wolf Fenrir. But some of the gods survive along with some humans who had hidden in the World Tree and a new cycle of life begins. The adversary, Loki, is not the devil, he doesn't represent evil. What breaks out is a feud and when the gods fight the consequences are cosmological. Paganism is a lot harsher, in that not even the gods escape the consequences of Ragnarök, and doesn't have the redemption aspects that Christianity has. Our ancestors don't seem to have held out much hope for the next world.Thunder is the modern word for the Anglo-Saxon name for Thor, the Old Norse name, cf. Donner in German.
[b]FASCINATING !!
That and a $1.78, will get you a medium coffee at Seven/Eleven.
Thor is the wrong god in the Germanic pantheon to be comparing with Jesus.
Okay. You learn something everyday?
[q ...[text shortened]... with is Woden. [/quote]
Let me think on this a bit. I am being called away for the moment.[/b]
Originally posted by sonshipA simple no would have sufficed. Odd that you are unable to say it. I think you can't say it because it would negate the challenge you issued. That is why I call you dishonest. You ask the forum if anyone can produce a set of documents then when asked whether those documents would be relevant you cannot give a straight answer.
I'll give you as honest of an answer as I am possible to give.
And if you don't think I am being honest, then that will just have to be your problem.
Similarly, you claimed that Paul mentioning 500 witnesses to an event suggested the most likely explanation was that it happened. When questioned further, you suddenly change your stance and go into all sorts of irrelevant details as to why you are a Christian. But do you admit that your earlier claim was wrong? Never. Again, you are dishonest.