Originally posted by twhitehead
How do you know that I am the one blinded and not you?
I look at you and believe that you have been blinded by religion and cannot see the majesty of reality.
Which of us is blind? How do we sort this out?
I object to the dichotomy. If I wrote it once I must have written it now several times. That is that I still need a healing of the damage of sin upon the mind.
Having said that we can look at the first part - "How do you know that I am blinded ...?"
Of course "How do you know that?" can be interatively asked and re-asked ad infinitum. If I give an explanation of how do I know that the minds of unbelievers have been blinded by the god of this world, you can always respond -
"But how do you know that?"
"But how do you know that?" is a question one can ask forever.
I don't think it is necessary for me to go beyond my FIRST reply to this when you asked it BEFORE. And that reply still holds -
I am not encouraged when you think Thor and Jesus are roughly the same. That is all that is needed for starters here, I think.
You say, they are both mythological. Though you said that you said also that your found Thor MORE believable as a mythology than Jesus.
Why do you think Thor is more believable than Jesus of Nazareth ?
I look at you and believe that you have been blinded by religion and cannot see the majesty of reality.
You have that right.
To some extent I would agree.
However reality is the living God, I would say.
And the living God is not a religion.
I need something more than "I can say anything you can say."
Those three and one half years of the man Jesus of Nazareth set the pace for "majesty" in a man's life.
And if you regard Thor as superior in his statements (whatever they were), or his actions, or in his impact on history as being more majestic, then I would call that a blindness problem.
And what it indicates to me is that you are SO adverse and SO repulsed by the thought of considering the teaching of Jesus Christ, that you, in desperation, would go escape into the stories of Thor to argue that Jesus has nothing on Thor by which you could be benefited.
Jesus says He pours out His life in redemption that you may be justified from bearing a penalty that is too heavy for you. But you find Thor offers something better ? ... something more believable ?
What?
Originally posted by twhitehead
No, I consider it a sign of madness. Your mind is so damaged you are starting to hallucinate. And you cannot deny it as a mad man cannot easily distinguish hallucination from reality.
Hey, looks like YOU'RE the one to make the "You're MAD" accusation.
Okay, let's talk about hallucinations.
Let's talk about MASS hallucinations.
We have a document in which Paul says Jesus appeared to 500 people at one time after His resurrection.
He says that most of those 500 are alive at the time of his writing that statement to the Corinthian church. Some died. But the rest can vouch for it or deny it. "Go check them" is his implied advice.
Do you think 500 people all at one time had a mass hallucination?
I think that is far less likely.
One person may have had a hullucination that the crucified Jesus was alive again. But for 500 at one time to have the hullucination should have some explanation from you.
They all went MAD at the same time for a moment ?
How did Paul have the boldness to make such a statement that 500 people, most of which were still alive to verify OR deny, witnessed Jesus alive after His crucifixion ?
"And that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve; Then He appeared to over five hundred brothers at one time, of whom the majority remain until now, ..." (1 Cor. 15:5,6a)
Tell us about how this MADNESS struck 500 or more people in an instant simultaneously.
Originally posted by sonshipPlease try to stop spending half your posts anticipating questions I haven't asked and won't be asking. It just wastes time for both of us.
you can always respond -
"But how do you know that?"
I am not encouraged when you think Thor and Jesus are roughly the same. That is all that is needed for starters here, I think.
But if you are blinded to Thors majesty, then that is what I would expect you to reply.
I on the other hand am not encouraged by the suggestion that Jesus is a historical figure.
Why do you think Thor is more believable than Jesus of Nazareth ?
I could go into it in detail, but I doubt you would understand as you have been blinded by Thors minions and cannot hope to see the truth with your damaged mind.
However reality is the living God, I would say.
But how do you know this? All the reasons you have for thinking this is the case could just be symptoms of your blindness. Given the proposition that there can be people who are blinded by something such that they are incapable of thinking clearly about certain topics, it is impossible for you to know that you are not a victim of such blindness.
And if you regard Thor as superior in his statements (whatever they were), or his actions, or in his impact on history as being more majestic, then I would call that a blindness problem.
Exactly. And I can call yours a blindness problem right back at you.
Now try and think a bit harder about what I am actually asking. How do you know that I am the one blinded and not you?
Originally posted by sonshipI do not know. There are a number of possibilities:
Do you think 500 people all at one time had a mass hallucination?
1. Paul made it up.
2. They did have a mass hallucination (this is actually not uncommon).
3. Someone else made it up and Paul heard about it.
4. Jesus didn't die. (I personally am not even convinced he existed, so this isn't my most likely option)
Also keep in mind that:
a) Paul could have been estimating and the number wasn't exactly 500. It could have been far fewer. In fact I rather doubt he could have actually counted out 500 people who all claimed to have experienced the hallucination.
b) Paul most likely actually only interviewed a few people who made it up, or hallucinated it, or only talked to people who claimed they knew people who experienced it etc.
I think that is far less likely.
Only because you have a reason to believe it. If I present to you an identical situation with 500 people in the modern day that you can actually go and interview yourself without having to rely on a 2000 year old unauthenticated document for, you will still reject the claim. In other words you won't actually accept the same level or better of evidence in other circumstances proving that your judgement in this matter is not based on logic or reason.
As an aside, what do you think of this:
http://time.com/3739786/memory-september-11/?xid=newsletter-brief
Originally posted by twhitehead
But if you are blinded to Thors majesty, then that is what I would expect you to reply.
It sounds like you intend to be disingenuous.
"I can say what you say."
Why do you think Thor is more believable than Jesus of Nazareth ?
I could go into it in detail, but I doubt you would understand as you have been blinded by Thors minions and cannot hope to see the truth with your damaged mind.
So sarcasm and disingenuous comebacks are your reasons.
Clever as usual.
Okay, what I say you can say.
You can pretend to be devoted to Thor.
Very clever. Very typical.
I'm not going to labor on serious replies to lampooning cracks like that.
So strut away in self congradulations.
We all have got it. Whatever I say about the Christian Gospel you can turn around and pretend to be as convinced and more about Thor.
Run with that then.
To those who may have been impressed with twhiteheads suspicion that I am hullucinating concerning the experience of God -
Let me say, at no time have I ever said on this Forum I physically heard God's voice.
At no time ever on this Forum have I said I physically saw God.
There is a spiritual realm and a spiritual dimension to human life which does not involve the five physical senses. And if by "hallucination" this poster means something involving the physical senses in the experience of God, its a "misunderstanding."
Concerning Paul's valuable word about 500 plus witnesses to the resurrection it is suggested.
1. Paul made it up.
Sure. Maybe Paul made it up.
Maybe as the Corinthians are reading the letter they are laughing hysterically among themselves knowing that Paul made this up.
One thing the researcher could do is ascertain what kind of person he seems to be from reading his 13 some letters in the New Testament. One might get into his personality and decide if these writings appear to be of a man who would have this ethical flaw of deliberately lying.
One can ask "Does the moral instructions constantly conveyed in his letters suggest a person given to lying to gain advantage over people?"
In the Thessalonian letters he reminds his audience about how he and his co-workers behaved among them.
"For you yourselves know, brothers, our entrance toward you, that it has not been in vain ... For our exhortation is not out of deception nor out of uncleaness nor in guile. But even as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not as pleasing men but God, who proves our hearts.
For neither were we found at any time with flattering speech, even as you know, nor with a pretext for covetousness. God is witness.
Nor did we seek glory from men, neither from you nor from others, thugh we could have stood on our authority as apostles of Christ.
But we were gentle in your midst, as a nursing mother would cherish her own children.
... we were well pleased to impart to you not only the gospel of God but also our own souls, because you became beloved to us.
For you REMEMBER, brothers, our labor and travail. While working night and day so as not to be burdensome to any of you, we proclaimed to you the gospel of God.
You are witnesses, as well as God, how holy and righteous and blameless manner we conducted ourselves toward you who believe."
Now it is easy for a person to talk this way to people he has never met. It is another thing to write to people telling them to REMEMBER how their conduct was.
When you write people with whom you have stayed for a long period of time, it is not that easy to tell them to remember how "blameless" you were unless you're open to them exclaiming that their experience of your visit was quite the opposite.
One then should consult Paul's personality in his other letters. One has to decide if it is probable that such a person talks out of both sides of his mouth, deliberately fabricating LIES about the resurrection of Jesus.
It was quite bold of Paul to remind the Thessalonian church about how clean, above board, honest, genuine and caring his visit was with them. And he seems to have insisted on a high level of behavior with all his associates with whom he coordinated with.
Does Paul display the characteristics of a charlatan ?
At least it appears that he really believed himself what he was teaching and suffering severely for.
Can anyone provide for me some historical document akin to the First Corinthian letter of Paul, purporting a few hundred eye witnesses to Thor?
Are there any similar documents in which something like someone reminding a congregation the hundreds of contemporary people (to the writer) were witnesses to THOR ?
Originally posted by twhiteheadThe mass halluciantion by 500 people in Zambia is not uncommon. Now I know never to travel to Zambia. 😏
I do not know. There are a number of possibilities:
1. Paul made it up.
2. They did have a mass hallucination (this is actually not uncommon).
3. Someone else made it up and Paul heard about it.
4. Jesus didn't die. (I personally am not even convinced he existed, so this isn't my most likely option)
Also keep in mind that:
a) Paul could have been ...[text shortened]... e, what do you think of this:
http://time.com/3739786/memory-september-11/?xid=newsletter-brief
Originally posted by sonshipThat is exactly what I am saying, and have been saying since the start of the thread. It is not disingenuous. What is disingenuous is how you have spent the whole thread attempting not to deal with it.
It sounds like you intend to be disingenuous.
"I can say what you say."
Very clever. Very typical.
And very true.
I'm not going to labor on serious replies to lampooning cracks like that.
Essentially, you refuse to address the point I have been making from the very start of the thread (go and check my very first post in the thread and see for yourself), you have simply been waiting for an excuse to say you won't address it.
So strut away in self congradulations.
I certainly intend to.
We all have got it. Whatever I say about the Christian Gospel you can turn around and pretend to be as convinced and more about Thor.
Run with that then.
I did. And I proved my point.
Its a pity you had such difficulty admitting it and took so long to get the point despite my many posts stating just that in plain English.
Originally posted by twhitehead
And I proved my point.
What point did you prove?
You did not prove the point that any logical, consistent series of thoughts is the truth. You did prove that you can arrange a similar series of logically arrived at concepts, which are somewhat consistent and similarly related.
Its yours to learn that not every step by step logically proposed alternative to Jesus Christ is the truth. Maybe not every reasonable parallel series of thoughts you can arrange concerning Thor or Superman or anyone else you'd like to pretend is "like" Jesus Christ, is the truth.
Maybe the light in you is in fact great darkness.
That is exactly what I am saying, and have been saying since the start of the thread. It is not disingenuous. What is disingenuous is how you have spent the whole thread attempting not to deal with it.
I consider it not genuine of your actual convictions.
I consider that you can show that you can imitate strong convictions.
It is noteworthy that in the book of Exodus when God sent Moses to Pharoah, God gave Him a sign so show Pharoah. God told have Aaron cast down his rod on the ground and miraculously it would turn into a serpent.
To Moses's surprise and to all the rest of us, the Egyptian magicians did the same thing. They said in essence "No problem, what you just did we have the ability to also do."
And Moses and Aaron came to Pharoah, and they did just as Jehovah had commanded; and Aaron threw down His staff before Pharoah and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
"Then Pharoah also called for the wise men and the sorcerers; and they also; the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret spells." (Exodus 7:10,11)
To some degree we Christians have to learn this. No problem. I've been through it before.
It is a principle often repeated - "What you can do, well, why we can also do too."
Originally posted by RJHindsThank you for demonstrating my point. Sonship on the other hand will be book ing a flight to Zambia immediately as he feels that it is most likely that the messiah is in Zambia awaiting his arrival.
The mass halluciantion by 500 people in Zambia is not uncommon. Now I know never to travel to Zambia. 😏
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipIf I provide such documents, will you become a believer in Thor?
Can anyone provide for me some historical document akin to the First Corinthian letter of Paul, purporting a few hundred eye witnesses to Thor?
Are there any similar documents in which something like someone reminding a congregation the hundreds of contemporary people (to the writer) were witnesses to THOR ?
Originally posted by sonshipOuch. You stated it in your own post, and you still don't get it.
What point did you prove?
I guess you are too blinded by your religion to ever understand - even though the point is so simple I bet everyone else reading this has got it. (except perhaps poor RJ).
You did not prove the point that any logical, consistent series of thoughts is the truth.
No, I didn't, nor did I claim to. Once again, you are responding to what you think I would say, but didn't say.
Its yours to learn that not every step by step logically proposed alternative to Jesus Christ is the truth.
Neither is Jesus Christ: that is yours to learn.
I will try this one last time, and if you still can't understand plain English, then I give up:
You have claimed that some people are incapable of understanding certain things because they have damaged mind and have been blinded. It doesn't matter what evidence is presented to them, they will never ever get it unless external actions remove that blindness or brain damage.
You therefore cannot know yourself whether or not you are equally blinded with regards to your religious beliefs. It doesn't matter what evidence you present to justify your claims as you may be being blinded or be suffering from the damage mind issues aforementioned.
You have only two honest options:
1. Admit that you have no way of knowing whether or not you are blinded. And any claims levelled against you in this regards by me cannot be rationally defended.
2. Change your stance on the matter.