Soteriological Reductio Ad Absurdum

vistesd

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11 Aug '15 20:34

lemon lime
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12 Aug '15 04:151 edit
Originally posted by vivify
We've been over this. God doesn't care about free will, and has violated it many times in the bible. Just look at this thread's OP:

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=163325
God does care about free will. But he won't allow our fee will to go unchecked so that it will harm (or continue to harm) others. What you see as God violating mans free will conveniently manages to avoid acknowledging harmful long term consequences of our acting only in self interest.

The sticking point for many people seems to be that our free will does not trump his free will, and I suspect this is the part which is the most difficult for atheists to wrap their heads around. The idea that we are in complete control of our own destiny (for good, bad or indifferent) is seductively self serving, and does not allow for any outside (outside of ourselves) sentient force to dictate how we are to live our lives.

And so this is where free will comes into play. Because if it is so important to you that you must be the master of your own life (not answerable to any outside authority or influence) and you are willing to risk complete and utter rejection for the temporary satisfaction of not having to answer to anyone, then you are allowed that option. God is not a tyrant who will force you into compliance. All of existence belongs to Him, and the options are all laid out before you... you can choose to go along with Him or not go along with him, and you can even choose whether you want to believe in his existence or not. So when it gets right down to it the only thing you really have to complain about is the fact that you are required to choose*.

And now, for a brief lamentation before I click on the little blue "Post" box...

Life would be so much simpler and devoid of risk if we were incapable of choosing. Why couldn't God have just made us unthinking sentient cogs in a machine? Oh woe is me, oh woe is me... ohhhh, why me?

* choosing not to choose is also a choice.
vivify
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12 Aug '15 04:471 edit
Originally posted by lemon lime
God does care about free will. But he won't allow our fee will to go unchecked so that it will harm (or continue to harm) others. What you see as God violating mans free will conveniently manages to avoid acknowledging harmful long term consequences of our acting only in self interest.
If that's true, why are there children who have been raped and abused? Why hasn't God intervened for them? Or victims of the Holocaust? Or those gruesomely killed under Vlad the Impaler?
vivify
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12 Aug '15 05:26
Originally posted by KellyJay
An I guess it did not leave a lasting memory.
I looked at the link and I didn't see a thread by the way.
Thread 163325
lemon lime
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12 Aug '15 05:531 edit
Originally posted by vivify
If that's true, why are there children who have been raped and abused? Why hasn't God intervened for them? Or victims of the Holocaust? Or those gruesomely killed under Vlad the Impaler?
I assume you've read the parts of the Bible you're complaining about, and already know that God rarely acts immediately. And I don't know why he would, because what's the point of having free will if you're not allowed to carry out free will decisions?

I can't tell you why he lets evil in a society fulfill itself and doesn't immediately nip it in the bud, but if you think about it how many of us here wouldn't be here if he didn't allow time for repentance? I know my existence would have ended a long time ago, and I dare say so would yours...

But I suppose now I should anticipate someone complaining about their continued existence (in sin)... Why, oh Lord, why have you allowed me to continue living? LoL

There is also an afterlife to consider. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man gives us a fairly good idea as to how things will even out in the end. Those who have suffered unfairly at the hands of evil men won't have to suffer, and those who persisted in being evil will have to suffer... in fact one might even say that God is the father of incentives and disincentives.

God didn't rape and abuse children, He didn't cause the holocaust, and He didn't make Vlad the Impaler do horrible things, so maybe you could try keeping this in perspective... because God didn't make you do bad things either. It's called personal responsibility and personal accountability. You don't get to take personal credit for everything good that happens, and you don't get to pass off everything bad that happens onto God.

1 Cor 13
" ... when I became a man I put away childish things."
divegeester
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12 Aug '15 05:543 edits
Originally posted by vistesd
All of the following is intended to fall within a Christic context. The reductio ad absurdum is this:

1. It is God’s will (intention) to save everyone;
2. There is no exogenous power that can defeat God;
3. Not everyone is saved.
There is a big assumption being made here: that God's intention is to save everyone. While an aspirational intent of universal ultimate reconciliation is inherently woven through much of the Bible, especially the NT, and the temporal acts of judgement notwithstanding, the intent of God to save everyone is not entirely consistent in scripture.

Take Romans 9:22 for example:
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

Just putting it out there...
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12 Aug '15 06:01
Originally posted by rwingett
It has long been my position that free will is an impossibility in conjunction with an omnipotent and omniscient god and that everything that happens in this world is necessarily what god intended all along. Satan is on god's payroll, so to speak.

Not sure what your point is with regard to distributive justice, though.
You are assuming that free will is only possible with ultimate knowledge. You can be free to excercise you will to so as you please irrespective of knowledge, power or lifespan.
vivify
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12 Aug '15 06:42
Originally posted by lemon lime
I assume you've read the parts of the Bible you're complaining about, and already know that God rarely acts immediately. And I don't know why he would, because what's the point of having free will if you're not allowed to carry out free will decisions?
This doesn't seem consistent. Earlier in this thread, you said that God intervenes against a person's free will in order to stop harm from coming to people. So after I asked why God continues to let people harm each other, you reply "what's the point point of having free will" if he did.

Doesn't this seem contradictory to you?
twhitehead
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12 Aug '15 07:15
Originally posted by divegeester
You are assuming that free will is only possible with ultimate knowledge. You can be free to excercise you will to so as you please irrespective of knowledge, power or lifespan.
You have clearly misunderstood his post. He is saying free will is incompatible with Gods omnipotence and omniscience - and does not mention the knowledge or lack thereof of the actor in question.
moonbus
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12 Aug '15 07:161 edit
How about this?

1. God intends that every soul be saved.

2. God offers grace to those willing to receive it. That is, God reaches out, but ...

3. not every soul will accept what has been offered; some humans won’t reach back. And this is where freewill enters the equation, because God won’t force anyone to reach out and accept the offer.
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12 Aug '15 07:31
Originally posted by moonbus
How about this?

1. God intends that every soul be saved.

2. God offers grace to those willing to receive it. That is, God reaches out, but ...

3. not every soul will accept what has been offered; some humans won’t reach back. And this is where freewill enters the equation, because God won’t force anyone to reach out and accept the offer.
The revelation of the God figure and the "offer" would have to be unequivocal, indisputable, and convincing to all humans for your 1. 2. and 3. to be valid, in my view.
lemon lime
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12 Aug '15 08:591 edit
Originally posted by vivify
This doesn't seem consistent. Earlier in this thread, you said that God intervenes against a person's free will in order to stop harm from coming to people. So after I asked why God continues to let people harm each other, you reply "what's the point point of having free will" if he did.

Doesn't this seem contradictory to you?
If this doesn't seem consistent it's probably because I wasn't talking about God intervening against a (meaning one) persons free will.

I was specifically referring to God waiting until 'a people', society or nation has gone from bad to worse before acting against that group of people, or society or nation. But the same pattern also applies to individuals. The same amount of time given for some (one) person to go from bad to worse can be used by that individual for recognizing the problems in their life, and allows him the space (time) to repent.

God isn't playing 'gotcha sucka' with us the way some people will, nor is he waiting for us to fail so he can jump in and declare "Aha, you screwed up!" That's not his MO, and people who do this aren't following Gods lead... they're following after someone else.

edit: You could also be seeing 'inconsistencies' and 'contradictions' if you are thinking in terms of absolutes. Man having free will is necessarily limited to what he is able to do, so we don't (because we can't) possess absolute free will in the sense that we are able to do whatever we want, or can imagine doing. Absolute free will, if there is such a thing, would be something a god might possess, but seeing as how we are not gods...
twhitehead
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12 Aug '15 09:09
Originally posted by moonbus
3. not every soul will accept what has been offered; some humans won’t reach back. And this is where freewill enters the equation, because God won’t force anyone to reach out and accept the offer.
As others have said, the difficulty here is the question of why such free will is important to God especially since the uninformed choice is essentially arbitrary. In addition most of us would argue that a 'choice by default' where the chooser is not even aware of making a choice but is considered to have chosen via abstinence is not well described by the phrase 'free will'.
It is less of a case of God not forcing anyone, and more of a case of God not telling some people about the choice.
You would be hard pressed to explain why a fully informed person would choose not to accept the offer.
KellyJay
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12 Aug '15 10:30
Originally posted by vivify
Thread 163325
Thank you saw that, but it doesn't change anything. Nothing I said there is going against
what I wrote here. I'm just looking at it the question differently, but the answers are the
same. I don't believe that "free will" is truly the goal, but a will that will restrain oneself
due to the love it has. We are still making the choices, our choices are still going to be
judged. Am I saying something that you think does not line up with what I said before?
divegeester
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12 Aug '15 10:34
Originally posted by twhitehead
You have clearly misunderstood his post. He is saying free will is incompatible with Gods omnipotence and omniscience - and does not mention the knowledge or lack thereof of the actor in question.
Free will of the creation is still possible withing the construct of a creator being who is all powerful and all knowing.
KellyJay
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12 Aug '15 10:43
Originally posted by vivify
This doesn't seem consistent. Earlier in this thread, you said that God intervenes against a person's free will in order to stop harm from coming to people. So after I asked why God continues to let people harm each other, you reply "what's the point point of having free will" if he did.

Doesn't this seem contradictory to you?
There is a lot that takes place in this life time that God allows, but the real test will be
what moves on after this, those that do evil will not pass on into God's eternal kingdom.

Nothing about this life is eternal we are birthed into this world, and we leave when we die.
Yes there are a lot of pain and suffering here, but most of that is by our own hands. Even
here there are posters who said they wanted others to die or they wish great harm upon
others. So we act out as we will, and we will give an account for it, like it or not.

Revelation 21New International Version (NIV)

A New Heaven and a New Earth

21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”