Speed of Light and Age of Universe

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
A metaphysical claim is one that states that something is the case external to the universe.

All information available to us is within the universe and distinguishes only between states of the universe.

Informational deliberation is the process of determining whether the weight of the evidence indicates that some claim is more likely to be tr ...[text shortened]... that one can have a meaningful deliberation about the existence of the flying spaghetti monster.

First, I would generally disagree with your definition of 'metaphysical claim'. Metaphysics, as a branch of philosophy, deals with the nature of Being or Reality - therefore, claims about the physical universe would very much be within the ambit of metaphysics. Nevertheless, for the purposes of this discussion, let's take your definition.

Second, what do you mean by "information"?

Originally posted by lucifershammer


Second, what do you mean by "information"?

Information is anything that can be used to distinguish some states of systems as being more or less likely than others.

For a shuffled deck of cards, you have no information about the second card, which is to say, you cannot distinguish any possible property values of the second card as being more or less likely than other property values. You can't say whether it is more likely a heart or a club, a 2 or a 7.

But after examining the top one you have received information bearing on the likelihood that the next card is a club, a 2, or the Jack of hearts. Because of this increase in information, your information-based beliefs are now more likely to be correct. But if your beliefs about the second card are not based in information, the new information doesn't help improve the accuracy of your beliefs.

Information is our most reliable instrument for navigating the seas of uncertainty.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yep if we put a lot of thought into it, we could write a good one.
Having on start out of nothing but random key strokes and get to
the level of grandmaster is quite another thing all together.
Kelly

A can evolve to B, B can evolve to C and so on until we get to Z. Therefore A can evolve to Z.

Simple, No?

In this case keystrokes would become basic commands (depending on the level of abstraction the key strokes could act on memory locations and create the command that way or into a terminal of some kind forming commands that are interpreted by an already present prompt), basic commands become complex commands and so on.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yep if we put a lot of thought into it, we could write a good one.
Having on start out of nothing but random key strokes and get to
the level of grandmaster is quite another thing all together.
Kelly

not if you are allowed multiple different copies, and they are forced to play each other, with only the winners moving onto the next round of competition, and differentiating from there.

Originally posted by XanthosNZ
A can evolve to B, B can evolve to C and so on until we get to Z. Therefore A can evolve to Z.

Simple, No?

In this case keystrokes would become basic commands (depending on the level of abstraction the key strokes could act on memory locations and create the command that way or into a terminal of some kind forming commands that are interpreted by an already present prompt), basic commands become complex commands and so on.

You don't write code do you?
Kelly

Originally posted by scottishinnz
not if you are allowed multiple different copies, and they are forced to play each other, with only the winners moving onto the next round of competition, and differentiating from there.

You don't even get to start with a working chess program, you only
get unlimited key strokes.

After that you can copy what is done as much as you want as long as
it is part of the process that your random key strokes programmed
into your chess program.

If random keys strokes can manage to write and program the copy
feature cool you can have it!

You think unlimited keys strokes can pull that off?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You don't even get to start with a working chess program, you only
get unlimited key strokes.

After that you can copy what is done as much as you want as long as
it is part of the process that your random key strokes programmed
into your chess program.

If random keys strokes can manage to write and program the copy
feature cool you can have it!

You think unlimited keys strokes can pull that off?
Kelly

This is not quite accurate, KellyJay.

Let's say it takes 8 coherent keystrokes to make a teeny tiny command that improves the
chess program. Let's say that improvement is almost imperceptible, but is there.

How long before you'll get one improvement? Not too long. Now, if you don't retain
that improvement, then you're screwed. Because you have to hope that, with all the keystrokes
between now and infinity, all of the improvements have to happen at once.

But, that's not how evolution works. That first teeny tiny improvement is retained, which
enables the next improvement to be built upon it.

Eventually, you will get a program, because the randomly occurring improvements are kept in later
iterations.

Nemesio

Originally posted by KellyJay
You don't write code do you?
Kelly

I do actually.

Originally posted by Nemesio
This is not quite accurate, KellyJay.

Let's say it takes 8 coherent keystrokes to make a teeny tiny command that improves the
chess program. Let's say that improvement is almost imperceptible, but is there.

How long before you'll get one improvement? Not too long. Now, if you don't retain
that improvement, then you're screwed. Because you ...[text shortened]... ram, because the randomly occurring improvements are kept in later
iterations.

Nemesio

It's the tornado in the junkyard argument by a different name!

Originally posted by XanthosNZ
I do actually.

You do and you are still telling me that you think random key
strokes can with an unlimited amount of energy create a chess
program?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You do and you are still telling me that you think random key
strokes can with an unlimited amount of energy create a chess
program?
Kelly

Of course. What is a program except a combination of key strokes? If we've unlimited time, and unlimited keystrokes one is bound to happen eventually. Of course, we both know that's not how evolution proceeds.

Originally posted by Nemesio
This is not quite accurate, KellyJay.

Let's say it takes 8 coherent keystrokes to make a teeny tiny command that improves the
chess program. Let's say that improvement is almost imperceptible, but is there.

How long before you'll get one improvement? Not too long. Now, if you don't retain
that improvement, then you're screwed. Because you ram, because the randomly occurring improvements are kept in later
iterations.

Nemesio

In life it is very basic; you can get small changes within a life form
and death doesn't always come; neither will it hinder it a great deal
some times, but you screw up the wrong thing at the wrong time it
is over! For that life form it isn't going to live if the wrong things
changes at the wrong time, and so it is with computer programs! You
cannot just add key strokes, and expect it do what it was doing, or
continue to do anything at all, much less do more with greater
efficiently, it will more times than not case a crash and that will end
the program, in life it is death.

What evolutionist believers are asking everyone to believe is that
without direction, just the right keys strokes were made at just
the right time, in just the right place to ensure not only that the
program (life) to continue living, but the functional complexity of
that life increases by gaining things like hearts, brains, eyes, blood,
roots, wings, leaves, bark and so on. The more sophisticated the
program the less you can do it without knowing exactly what your
are doing, and life by far is much more complicated than any
man made computer program!

There isn’t any example where this occurs except the imagination
of the evolutionist believers, things break down the do not become
more functionally complex with time. Between the ears of the
true believers in evolution it has occurred, they just cannot show
it occurring anywhere else, unless they use terms like “billions of
years” or something along those lines.
Kelly

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Of course. What is a program except a combination of key strokes? If we've unlimited time, and unlimited keystrokes one is bound to happen eventually. Of course, we both know that's not how evolution proceeds.

What you believe it does, doesn't mean it is reality.
Kelly

Originally posted by XanthosNZ
It's the tornado in the junkyard argument by a different name!

Both are true, endless energy does nothing if it does not 'do the
right things at the right time' it is simply endless energy! Back to
the billion of years cop out that all evolution has when confronted
with this argument.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Both are true, endless energy does nothing if it does not 'do the
right things at the right time' it is simply endless energy! Back to
the billion of years cop out that all evolution has when confronted
with this argument.
Kelly

Nemesio gave you the fault in your logic and you didn't even notice. I'm not going to waste my time telling you what has already been said and you have ignored.