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Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. 24 Feb '18 02:28 / 9 edits
    Let's start with Ezekiel who was one of the late OT prophets. Following is the standard for repentance set by God according to Ezekiel.

    Ezekiel 18
    21“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live...
    24“But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die...
    30“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

    Clearly the standard for repentance set by God is that the individual no longer commits sin. Those who repent and no longer commit sin will "live". Those who do not repent and continue to sin will "die".

    The gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry is consistent with this standard of repentance. Those who repent and no longer commit sin will "live". Those who do not repent and continue to sin will "die".

    Yet the vast majority of Christians seem to have a lower standard for repentance. Some seem to have a much lower standard for repentance.

    How can a standard that is lower than that set by God and that is consistent with the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry reasonably be justified?

    What is your understanding of the standard for repentance?

    Note that Isaiah 1 and Jeremiah 7 are also consistent with the concepts set forth in Ezekiel 18. It is up to the individual to "stop doing wrong" and "make [themselves] clean". The door is closed on "sacrifice". God wants loyalty. The last two concepts are also explicitly stated in Hosea 6:6. These are also late OT prophets. All of these concepts are consistent with the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.
  2. Standard member Romans1009
    Cretinous Mutterings
    24 Feb '18 02:51
    This is long, and I left the verse numbers in for reference. I was initially just going to quote verses 24 through 26, but I think the whole chapter is relevant to your OP so have posted it in its entirety.

    Great discourse on the law...

    “O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

    4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

    5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

    7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

    10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

    12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

    13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

    16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

    18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

    19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

    20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

    21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

    (Galatians 3)
  3. Subscriber Suzianne
    Misfit Queen
    24 Feb '18 04:30
    Behold the difference between the Old and New Testaments.
  4. 24 Feb '18 04:37
    It says in 1 John 1 the following:

    8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.


    We can conclude two things:

    (a) we are all clearly sinners and we will likely go in committing sins. However,
    (b) we are forgiven our sins by confession to God of them.

    Do you deny that, ThinkOfOne?

    If you do not dney it... how could you preach some kind of total justification by the law?
  5. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    24 Feb '18 04:41 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    In Galatians Paul points out that the Holy Spirit is received by faith and not by law keeping.

    "Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the law having become a curse on our behalf ... in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Gal 3:13a,14)


    HAVING SAID THAT ... Paul firmly establishes that the Christian should not use any freedom as an opportunity for the fallen sinful flesh, which is still with them.

    "For you were called to freedom, brothers, only do not turn this freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another." (5:13)


    Though the regenerated by the Holy Spirit are free from the law, they should not use the freedom as an opportunity to continue to live the old way.

    Instead they must learn to LIVE by the new creation they have become. That entails that Christ, the Spirit can be not only an eternal Redeemer to them, but One moment by moment living in them a victorious life on the highest plane of righteousness.

    "But I say. Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh." (5:16)


    Being born again, receiving the Spirit is only the beginning of them learning to live by the fruits of the Spirit, qualifying them for entry into the millennial kingdom.

    They should not be deceived. For them to continue to live in the old way. merely being self satisfied with freedom from the law may result that the cannot inherit the coming kingdom of a thousand years (before the eternal age).

    " of which things I tell you beforehand, even as I have said before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (3:21)


    What counts is that they should learn to walk by the Spirit to develop into and grow into a new creation:

    "For neither is circumcision anything nor uncircumcision, but a new creation is what matters. (6:15)


    Though the Galatians had received the Holy Spirit, Paul still labored like a mother with them that Christ would take shape and be formed in them.

    "My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ be formed in you." (4:19)


    He sets himself forth as an example. It is no longer he who lives but by the same faith, he allows Christ to completely live out in him.

    "I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith,

    the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

    I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness is through law, then Christ has died for nothing." (Gal. 2:20,21)
  6. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    24 Feb '18 04:58 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    Let's start with Ezekiel who was one of the late OT prophets. Following is the standard for repentance set by God according to Ezekiel.

    Ezekiel 18
    21“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22None of the offenses ...[text shortened]... ets. All of these concepts are consistent with the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.
    Clearly the standard for repentance set by God is that the individual no longer commits sin. Those who repent and no longer commit sin will "live". Those who do not repent and continue to sin will "die".


    And this sounds very much like the apostle Paul's exhortation about life and death.

    "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace." (Romans 8:6)


    The audience - those to whom the Triune God has dispensed into their spirit the Holy Spirit.

    "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor 6:17)


    The regenerated must learn a new way to live - by setting the mind on the mingled spirit where the Spirit of Christ is within them. That is life and peace.

    Death (weakness, uneasiness, darkness, vanity, depression, foolishness, backsliddeness, inability, and such negative things) results in continuing to live by setting the mind on the old nature.
  7. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    24 Feb '18 05:08
    No matter how hard critics of the Apostle Paul try, they can never substantiate that he was loose on morality. In other words no one can accuse the one most strong in Justification by Faith of giving Christians license to live low ethical lives.

    For him faith is not just the initiation but the entire process unto Christ living out His life again on earth, this time in His believers.

    That is a life of the highest standard of morality on earth.
    But it is by faith. It is by not nullifying the grace of God.
  8. 24 Feb '18 07:33 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    The gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry is consistent with this standard of repentance.
    You keep mentioning this “gospel” of Jesus Christ in your posts, the good news. What is this good news?

    When Jesus said he was sent by God, do you believe him?
  9. Standard member Rajk999
    Enjoying
    24 Feb '18 10:51 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    Let's start with Ezekiel who was one of the late OT prophets. Following is the standard for repentance set by God according to Ezekiel.

    Ezekiel 18
    21“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22None of the offenses ...[text shortened]... ets. All of these concepts are consistent with the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.
    The standard for repentance in both old and new testaments are identical.
    The sacrifice of Christ, neither the New Covenant changed this standard.

    Under the New Covenant, Christians are required to crucify the flesh, grow in righteousness, and eventually become perfect before God, and they should be able to do this with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The consequences of not doing these are severe as the Apostles stated over and over. Failure to grow and shed the fleshly desires = destruction. Only those reaching the desired state of maturity and righteousness will enter the Kingdom of God ... again clearly stated all through the NT. .. [sin no more]

    The failure of Christian churches is that they do not preach this, even though it is the truth as preached by Jesus and the Apostles. If they did preach this truth then their churches [and bank accounts] would be empty. Hence churches have gone the way of the teachings of the Devil ... ie you dont need to obey God... the doctrine requiring obedience to God is a lie... you will still get eternal life.. not even God can revoke that.... sounds eerily close to what Satan told Eve.

    Nice Topic ToO.
  10. Standard member Rajk999
    Enjoying
    24 Feb '18 10:55
    Originally posted by @sonship
    No matter how hard critics of the Apostle Paul try, they can never substantiate that he was loose on morality. In other words no one can accuse the one most strong in [b]Justification by Faith of giving Christians license to live low ethical lives.

    For him faith is not just the initiation but the entire process unto Christ living out His lif ...[text shortened]... t standard of morality on earth.
    But it is by faith. It is by not nullifying the grace of God.[/b]
    Paul was never loose on morality. Chritians dont read, neither accept ALL of what Paul wrote. You in particular are guilty of cherry picking those parts of Paul and the Aposltes which suit your false nonsense that you constantly preach.
  11. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    24 Feb '18 11:26 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    Rajk999 boasts that he never, ever speaks of his personal experience. It sounds very humble and objective.

    The actual reason may have more to do with the fact that he disobeys God quite much more than he wants to admit to himself, let alone to anyone else.

    Having mostly only objective doctrinal information (which is often not even right) he shuns to speak about personal matters. Defeats, fleshy living, backsliding, hypocrisy, are all swept under his rug of shame disguised behind a facade of dedication to only the doctrinal, only the objective "right" information.
  12. Standard member Rajk999
    Enjoying
    24 Feb '18 11:37 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @sonship
    Rajk999 boasts that he never, ever speaks of his personal experience. It sounds very humble and objective.

    The actual reason may have more to do with the fact that he disobeys God quite much more than he wants to admit to himself, let alone to anyone else.

    Having mostly only objective doctrinal information (which is often not even right) he shuns to s ...[text shortened]... sed behind a facade of dedication to only the doctrinal, only the objective "right" information.
    You like the personal stuff ... clearly. Facebook mentality you have.

    Sheep of Christ cannot possibly have wrong information. Sheep of Christ are always right. . Why ? We listen to Christ ... only Christ. If you try it you will never be wrong.

    Now you can stick with Paul if you are strong enough to swallow all that Paul and the Apostles preached, because they did in fact preach the same doctrine as Christ. However with Paul because he starts off with statements which could lead weak minded people to grab on to a OSAS doctrine, like what you do. But thats partial information. Paul and the Aposltes preached extensively about the fate of the wicked and born-again Christian Saints who do not follow the commandments of Christ... but you dont want to hear about that.
  13. Standard member Romans1009
    Cretinous Mutterings
    24 Feb '18 15:36
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    The standard for repentance in both old and new testaments are identical.
    The sacrifice of Christ, neither the New Covenant changed this standard.

    Under the New Covenant, Christians are required to crucify the flesh, grow in righteousness, and eventually become perfect before God, and they should be able to do this with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. ...[text shortened]... not even God can revoke that.... sounds eerily close to what Satan told Eve.

    Nice Topic ToO.
    <<Failure to grow and shed the fleshly desires = destruction. Only those reaching the desired state of maturity and righteousness will enter the Kingdom of God ... again clearly stated all through the NT. .. [sin no more] >>

    No one is arguing that those who sincerely accept Christ into their hearts and receive the indwelling of God’s Holy Spirit have a license to continue sinning.

    In fact the Holy Spirit’s presence in a believer changes his or her heart to manifest the fruit of the Spirit in a believer’s life and an aversion to sin. While willfull sinning will fade and disappear, sinning as a whole will occasionally still take place as long as the believer is in the flesh. It’s why Paul wrote of the struggle between the Spirit and the flesh.

    But your statement in the above excerpt doesn’t explain what happens to a believer who is in the process you refer to but dies before reaching the “perfection” you refer to in one instance and “desired state of maturity and righteousness” in another instance.

    What happens in your opinion to that believer?

    And, in your opinion, is being “perfect before God” the same as reaching “the desired state of maturity and righteousness?”
  14. Standard member Rajk999
    Enjoying
    24 Feb '18 16:23
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    <<Failure to grow and shed the fleshly desires = destruction. Only those reaching the desired state of maturity and righteousness will enter the Kingdom of God ... again clearly stated all through the NT. .. [sin no more] >>

    No one is arguing that those who sincerely accept Christ into their hearts and receive the indwelling of God’s Holy Spirit have ...[text shortened]... ing “perfect before God” the same as reaching “the desired state of maturity and righteousness?”
    Same like the thief on the cross. Jesus knows the heart of men
  15. 24 Feb '18 16:42
    Originally posted by @suzianne
    Behold the difference between the Old and New Testaments.
    The gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry is consistent with the standard for repentance set by God in Ezekiel 18.

    Perhaps you consider the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry to be "Old Testament"?