Standard For Repentance

Originally posted by @thinkofone
The gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry is consistent with the standard for repentance set by God in Ezekiel 18.

Perhaps you consider the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry to be "Old Testament"?

Are you going to answer Divegeester's question about what exactly is the Good News you claim to be proclaiming ?

Originally posted by @philokalia
It says in 1 John 1 the following:

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

We can c ...[text shortened]... e?

If you do not dney it... how could you preach some kind of total justification by the law?

An important concept to understand in Ezekiel 18 is that God does not require the individual to have never sinned. Only that the individual no longer commits sin. The gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry, Isaiah 1 and Jeremiah 7 are all consistent with this concept.

1 John 1 is also consistent with this concept. You took 1:8-10 out of context:.
1 John 1
5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.

"God is light; in him there is no darkness at all". Therefore "[walking] in the light as he is in the light" would preclude walking in sin which is walking in darkness.

The author of 1 John unambiguously drives this point home in the following:
1 John 3
4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

So continuing with 1 John 1
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

They are to " walk in the light, as he is in the light" and then and only then will they be "[purified] from all sin".

1:8-10 is addressing those who "walk in the light, as he is in the light" and might think that they have no sin from prior to doing so. It does not say that it is impossible for an individual to no longer commit sin or anything of the sort.

Many point to 1:8-10 as saying just that, but that doesn't make any sense when viewed under the light of truth. Seems like Christianity was largely built upon these types of half-truths.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
An important concept to understand in Ezekiel 18 is that God does not require the individual to have never sinned. Only that the individual no longer commits sin. The gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry, Isaiah 1 and Jeremiah 7 are all consistent with this concept.

1 John 1 is also consistent with this concept. You took 1:8-10 out of context: ...[text shortened]... r the light of truth. Seems like Christianity was largely built upon these types of half-truths.

Walking in darkness would be denying/hiding our sin. Walking in the light is acknowledging and confessing our sin if and when we stumble. Which would be on the odd occasion when we act in the flesh and do not walk in the in spirit.

James 5:16

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail.

Before we are saved we live in sin and have no conviction about it. In fact we love our sin. But when we are saved we feel awful about our sin because the spirit of God convicts us about it each time and we have to repent daily as we are transformed into the image of Christ. Sometimes the struggle takes days or months before we finally get victory over the sin we are struggling with.

Philippians 1:6
For I am confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will continue to perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

I have yet to meet someone who doesn't still struggle with certain sins even after their conversion. Don't you struggle with sin?

Ephesians 6:12

Put on the full armor of God, so that you can make your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world's darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Once we are saved the Devil doesn't leave us alone he will tempt us daily. Once we fall he want us to give up and stay down.

Originally posted by @sonship
Are you going to answer Divegeester's question about what exactly is the Good News you claim to be proclaiming ?

It's out in my posting history. In fact I recently posted it in another thread for Suzianne, but she didn't respond. I've posted something similar a number of times. I'm sure you must have seen at least one of them. If you're really interested, send me a PM and I'll send you a link. I made the same offer to Suzianne, but never heard back. Evidently she wasn't really interested.

You should know as well as I do that DG isn't sincere. He recently proved it beyond all doubt on the "Red Letter Christians" thread. He's taken up following me around on various threads asking that question as if it were meaningful that he is doing so.

At the rate DG is going, he' going to wind up worse than Knightmeister. Remember him? At least KM was able to put together some substantive, though flawed, posts.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
It's out in my posting history. In fact I recently posted it in another thread for Suzianne, but she didn't respond. I've posted something similar a number of times. I'm sure you must have seen at least one of them. If you're really interested, send me a PM and I'll send you a link. I made the same offer to Suzianne, but never heard back. Evidently she w ...[text shortened]... ster. Remember him? At least KM was able to put together some substantive, though flawed, posts.

Why won't you answer the question as to whether or not you have stopped sinning? Or are you only speaking in hypotheticals and not about your own personal experience as a Christian?

ThinkOfOne, I fear that your idea of repentance is not the same as the New Testament's.

I think you think Repentance is to make a self improvement in one's life so that one is justified before God for salvation.

The thought of being a beneficiary without contributing something for God is appalling to you for it is to the fallen mankind.

Your concept of repentance is that "I must do something to bring to God for His salvation." In the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32) the returning son had his speech ready that he desired to become like a hired servant ready to WORK for his father's acceptance:

"And the son said to him, Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son" (v.21)

He didn't even get out the rest of his prepared speech, which was:

"I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants." (v.19)

He expected to work, maybe purchase himself better clothing and make himself more presentable as a hired man earning his wages.

But the loving father fell on his neck and would not even let him finish his prepared offer.

"But the father said to his slaves, Bring out quickly the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet.

And bring the fattened calf, slaughter it, and let us eat and be merry." (v.22,23)

Your concept of repentance is to come back to God as a worker buying the things you need to be presentable. The father provided his covering, his ornament of beauty, the food he needed to eat.

The parable contrasts the human concept of "repentance" being to self improve one's life BEFORE God will accept him for salvation. But it is the heavenly Father Who provides ALL that is needed in Jesus Christ.

Man's concept is that he needs a certain degree of improvement before he can return home to God.

Per the parable in Luke 15:11-32, if his clothes are filthy and he does not look as before, he must get better cloths on his own. The father still may not accept him. But at least he has a better chance.

This kind of concept is man's erroneous understanding of repentance. Repentance is matter in the Bible. But it is not the self improvement that now justifies the sinner by his own effort.

Man does not like to be on the bottom rung of the ladder, receiving undeserved pardon from God. Man likes to at least lift himself up to a higher rung and believe his self improvement will cause God to accept him.

Man disdains to be an unconditional beneficiary of God.

I challenge anyone to find the word "Repent" or "Repentance" in the Gospel of John.

The Gospel of John is the unique book telling us how we can receive eternal life. It is probably no accident that from its first to last chapter no mention is even made of repentance, either directly or indirectly.

To BELIEVE is, to have FAITH is the Apostle's emphasis.

Repent and repentance are indeed mentioned in the Bible, even in the synoptic Gospels. I believe that John never mentions repent/ repented/ repentance in order to counter balance the strong erroneous tendency in man to make repentance into a work of self improvement that earns God's salvation.

Originally posted by @sonship
Man's concept is that he needs a certain degree of improvement before he can return home to God.

Per the parable in [b]Luke 15:11-32, if his clothes are filthy and he does not look as before, he must get better cloths on his own. The father still may not accept him. But at least he has a better chance.

This kind of concept is man's erroneous unde ...[text shortened]... vement will cause God to accept him.

Man disdains to be an unconditional beneficiary of God.[/b]

Cherry picking alert!

'So as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.' (Colossians 1:10)


Why you are so intent to keep humans on the bottom rung of the ladder is beyond me.

Readers, God used John to speak the final word of many things in the Bible.

John is the last of the gospels written.
John's book of Revelation is the last book in the New Testament.
John's book of Revelation is the final book of the whole Bible.

The last epistles (with possible an exception of Jude) are John's three epistles - First, Second, Third John.

Revelation does indeed mention repentance.
But the Gospel of John does not mention it once.
I believe the Gospel of John was penned after the book of Revelation.

Though Matthew, Mark, Luke mention repent John does not.

The point is not that the other gospels are wrong.
The point here is that God reserved ONE Gospel to convey the good news without this word - "repent".

I believe the last Gospel has its function to counter balance any erroneous presumption of man that repentance is a salvation earning work of self improvement.

"I worked in repentance , making myself not so unacceptable. And therefore my repentance has its wages paid by God to me in terms of eternal life."

No. We cannot do something good before we can be saved eternally. We may realize that we cannot do everything. But we imagine that we can at least do SOMETHING. We imagine we can repent as a work to bring to God for our eternal redemption.

I think John (if not the other gospels) goes out of its way to correct this idea of the natural mind. We are called to believe in the Son of God to have life in His name.

" ... these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name." (John 20:31)

Originally posted by @sonship
I challenge anyone to find the word [b]"Repent" or "Repentance" in the Gospel of John.

The Gospel of John is the unique book telling us how we can receive eternal life. It is probably no accident that from its first to last chapter no mention is even made of repentance, either directly or indirectly.

To BELIEVE is, to have FAITH is the Apo ...[text shortened]... tendency in man to make repentance into a work of self improvement that earns God's salvation.[/b]

Zane Hodges, of course, argued, "Only a resolute blindness can resist the obvious conclusion: John did not regard repentance as a condition for eternal life. If he did, he would have said so. After all, that's what his book is all about: obtaining eternal life."

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke

Cherry picking alert!

'So as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.' (Colossians 1:10)

Why you are so intent to keep humans on the bottom rung of the ladder is beyond me.

First, let's deal with your wonderful reference to Colossians 1:10.

It is one thing to walk worthy of the Lord after He has come into your life by grace, and provides in grace the power to live in oneness with Him.

It is quite another thing to think your walking worth of the Lord was the cause of Him saving you, justifying you, granting you the GIFT of eternal life.

That is why I have to labor a bit on the Bible's idea of repentance and the natural man's idea of repentance.

To your second point:

In order to COME UP you first must admit and realize that you start from the bottom. The goal is not to STAY low. The goal is to rise with the proper FIRM foundation.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Zane Hodges, of course, argued, "Only a resolute blindness can resist the obvious conclusion: John did not regard repentance as a condition for eternal life. If he did, he would have said so. After all, that's what his book is all about: obtaining eternal life."

Thankyou for that quotation.

Which side of the matter do you intend to stand on?
"Repentance" as salvation earning work of self improvement? or Believing in the Son of God as the bare bottom line requirement for salvation?

I'm not clear which side you wish to support.

Originally posted by @sonship
Thankyou for that quotation.

Which side of the matter do you intend to stand on?
"Repentance" as salvation earning work of self improvement? or Believing in the Son of God as the bare bottom line requirement for salvation?

I'm not clear which side you wish to support.

I'm on neither side. Think of me as a chap sitting on the fence, picking cherries from an overhanging tree.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Cherry picking alert!

'So as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.' (Colossians 1:10)


Why you are so intent to keep humans on the bottom rung of the ladder is beyond me.

Why you are so intent to keep humans on the bottom rung of the ladder is beyond me.

It is somewhat beyond me why you would jump to this conclusion as to my motive.

On the contrary, the eternal purpose of God is to mass produce sons as Jesus Christ was the FIRST...born Son of "many brothers".

If I have pointed out that goal once on this Forum I have pointed it out 60 times.

That is a salvation lifting man to the highest and uttermost perfection. Am I right ?

" Because those whom he foreknew He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom. 8:29)

I hear ThinkOfOne complaining that he wants it from the horse's mouth - Jesus, in the red letters, during His ministry as He walked the earth.

No problem:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies it abides alone; but if it dies it bears much fruit." (John 12:24)

Christ DIED that what He is would be mass produced in others, many others.

I've said it before. So why do you come chiming in "Oh sonship, you just want us all to feel so worthless and so low and so useless etc. etc. putting man DOWN all the time!"

No Ghost. Like the New Testament I was to take off from the launch pad firmly grounded in the reliable foundation.

Christ ever lives to save man to "the UTTERMOST".

"Hence also He is able to save to the uttermost those who come forward to God through Him, since He lives always to intercede for them." (Hebrews 7:25)