Sudan: brutal torture of hundreds of converts

There is data to support the idea that countries with large Muslim populations are more hostile to other religions and that their governments place more restrictions on religion. Pew has the "Middle East-North Africa" region as significantly higher on these measures than any other region.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/06/20/arab-spring-restrictions-on-religion-findings/

Originally posted by divegeester
Well I guess we will disagree, although I do see you point about accuracy and balance of course.

I find it interesting that the majority here will defend Islam based on the "no true scotsman" argument when there are "real" atrocities being carried out today to real people in numerous countries in the name of Allah, and yet those same people vehemently ...[text shortened]... efore you or your team attack me for being a bigot or an Islamaphobe, I assure you I am neither.

Is the Islamic religion a contributing factor to some acts of violence and oppression
around the world?

Yes, of course it is.

However so is Christianity, and a number of other religions. Both historically and
presently.

Do the Islamic Holy books have parts that advocate and condone violence?

Yes, of course they do.

But so does the bible, and many other holy books.



Does religion on the whole promote peace and harmony or violence and conflict?

On net almost certainly violence and conflict.

Would we be better off without Islam or Christianity or religion in general?

Almost certainly.

Is that going to happen any time soon?

No, of course not.


However, the vast majority of the violence and intolerance is primarily caused by
corrupt political systems, inequality, poverty, starvation, conflict over land and
resources and possessions, and a lack of good education for all...

Which is why the violence tracks poverty and inequality much much more closely
than it tracks religious affiliation. (although levels of religiosity also track poverty
and inequality and lack of education)

And is why the overwhelming majority of this violence occurs in poverty stricken,
war torn, countries, and not in the rich west.

Despite us having millions upon millions of Muslims in our countries.



If you blame the religion entirely, if you claim that Islam is inherently evil [unlike any other
religion] and that Muslims are all ready to strap on a suicide vest at the drop of a hat
then you are promoting intolerance and inciting hatred of Muslims as people that is both
unwarranted and likely to lead to the kind of hostility and persecution that leads to
violence. And you miss the point that the real causes of the overwhelming amount of the
violence and harm are caused by factors other then the religion and can be stopped by
dealing with those factors.


I readily admit to despising religion, and am happy to point out the problems caused by religions
and faith based beliefs, including those of Islam.


But demonising all Muslims because a tiny few are terrorists is unhelpful, wrong, and hypocritical.

Would you by happy if I started saying that all Christians are potential terrorists because of the
Irish Terror campaigns?


By degrading peoples ability to think critically and skeptically and by promoting faith based beliefs
ALL religions make irrational and immoral terrorism and other oppression and violence and cruelty
more likely.


However that doesn't mean that all religions people are all just ticking time bombs waiting to explode.

And for the rich and powerful predominantly Christian west to portray the Muslim religion as particularly
evil (when Muslims are minorities inside those countries) is inherently dangerous as it leads to
persecution of decent law abiding and peaceful members of those countries.

And while Islam may be more extreme, there is almost no charge you can lay at the feet of Islam I
can't equally Lay at the feet of Christianity.

Want to see a prototype Sharia law... Read the old testament.

Most people don't follow the commands of the bible, because they are better and more moral than
their holy book. There is no reason the same can't apply to Muslims.


ALL the Abrahamic religions are inherently bad and dangerous.

The bigotry here is that that is not what is being said.


What is being said is that the Muslim PEOPLE are inherently evil and dangerous.


And that is not a supported or supportable claim.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Is the Islamic religion a contributing factor to some acts of violence and oppression
around the world?

Yes, of course it is.

However so is Christianity, and a number of other religions. Both historically and
presently.

Do the Islamic Holy books have parts that advocate and condone violence?

Yes, of course they do.

But so does the bib ...[text shortened]... PEOPLE are inherently evil and dangerous.


And that is not a supported or supportable claim.

Even as an atheist, I am open to the idea that all religions are not equally bad. We can and should make relative value judgments about religions. As I posted above, there is data to support the idea that Muslims are more violent and more intolerant than other religions toward non-believers. And videos by mainstream Muslims like this one (http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/islam-or-islamophobia2) are much easier to find than by mainstream people in any other major religion.

The video is from the "Peace Conference Scandinavia 2013" and is especially interesting (and disturbing) at the 3:25 mark, where the speaker asks how many people in the crowd are normal, non-extremist, non-radical Muslims, how many agree that men and woman should be segregated, and how many agree that stoning to death for adultery is a good punishment, and basically everyone raises their hand on all questions.

Originally posted by PatNovak
Even as an atheist, I am open to the idea that all religions are not equally bad. We can and should make relative value judgments about religions. As I posted above, there is data to support the idea that Muslims are more violent and more intolerant than other religions toward non-believers. And videos by mainstream Muslims like this one (http://www.samharr ...[text shortened]... th for adultery is a good punishment, and basically everyone raises their hand on all questions.

Ok, but how much of that effect is caused by the religion of Islam and how much
by other factors?

Go back a couple of centuries and look at how Christians persecuted, enslaved, killed,
and mistreated people... Look at how women were marginalised and abused...

I said that there is a lot of violence and oppression in Islamic countries, and they act as
the source of Islamic codes and attitudes... but those countries are not rich stable
democracies.

It's very hard to disentangle cause and effect.

I'm not objecting to suggestions that the Islamic religion might be a worse influence than
other religions such as Christianity because that's not what the posts I am objecting to are saying.

You are making a not unreasonable point, but you are not making the same point the OP is.

The OP [and others] is [are] saying that all Muslims are automatically suspect and dangerous
because they are Muslims.

And that isn't true, justifiable, or helpful.



My problem with ALL religions is that they require and promote faith based belief.
As well as typically portraying morality as something dictated by a god or gods.

It's that idea that you can and should believe things without evidence, and the assault
on the very idea of secular morality that makes religions all dangerous.

Because that removes some of the roadblocks for people to do these terrible things, as well as all the
smaller but more widespread acts of intolerance and bigotry and immorality done in the name of religions.

Western Christianity has had hundreds of years of slowly being dragged towards the moral high grounds by
secular morality, and Islam hasn't... yet.

But I don't think Christians should crow about the fact that they have better morals because they're more
secular. [of course they don't realise how far secular morality has moved them from Christianity's origins]


It also gives a similar problem as racial profiling for detecting and stopping crime.

If you have poor black neighbourhoods and affluent white ones then most crime will likely be committed by
the poor blacks. But their being black isn't why they commit crimes, and it's damaging to use that as a
criteria in assessing who's a risk. And especially damaging to discussions of how to fix the problem.


Now Islam is likely to be a contributing factor... But it's one amongst many.




How long have we in the west been trying to undo the damage from Christianity's patriarchal sexism?
And we're still not done yet, by a long shot.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Is the Islamic religion a contributing factor to some acts of violence and oppression
around the world?

Yes, of course it is.

However so is Christianity, and a number of other religions. Both historically and
presently.

Do the Islamic Holy books have parts that advocate and condone violence?

Yes, of course they do.

But so does the bib ...[text shortened]... PEOPLE are inherently evil and dangerous.


And that is not a supported or supportable claim.

Your ability to distinguish between the philosophies of various religions is appalling. Maybe you should read up on them before commenting.

Islamic extremists love the unsuspecting people like you.

Originally posted by googlefudge
The OP [and others] is [are] saying that all Muslims are automatically suspect and dangerous because they are Muslims.

I don't see anyone saying that, certainly not me. I think you just want people to be saying that so you can leverage your argument with the bigot and Islamaphobe pole.

I'm really disappointed with some people in this forum; I've been here 6 years listening to atheists rip Christians and Christianity apart for what? never about modern day terrorism because there is so much of it! never about oppressive laws! sexism, abuse and human rights violations? No all you "right on" defenders of the balanced argument, stereotype Christians and attack on the basis of the OT stories or modern day stupidity of the churches. But suddenly...oh my god..modern Christianity is now as bad as Islamic extremism.

A few months ago a young soldier was beheaded in a broad daylight in a London street by two men living in England who claimed to do it in the name of their religion. Islam.

The majority of Muslims in this country are moderate people living their lives. But some aren't. It's as simple as that.

Originally posted by whodey
Are you saying that Islam has nothing to do with spirituality?

You may be right about that.

This thread is about the Sudan and the regime there.
It is not about Islam.

You may as well put human rights issues from Christian countries here!

Or ask about how a Christian country can keep 150 foreign
nationals locked up without charge for years on end.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
This thread is about the Sudan and the regime there.
It is not about Islam.

You may as well put human rights issues from Christian countries here!

Or ask about how a Christian country can keep 150 foreign
nationals locked up without charge for years on end.

The "regime" is Islamic led, based on and enforced by Islamic religious law.

Originally posted by divegeester
I don't see anyone saying that, certainly not me. I think you just want people to be saying that so you can leverage your argument with the bigot and Islamaphobe pole.

I'm really disappointed with some people in this forum; I've been here 6 years listening to atheists rip Christians and Christianity apart for what? never about modern day terrorism ...[text shortened]... in this country are moderate people living their lives. But some aren't. It's as simple as that.

If that's all you've got - one beheading - then allow me to point out some of the fine Christians in the US who shoot abortion doctors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_George_Tiller

They even shot him during a church service! Yeah, Christians have the right to feel smug and superior to Islam. 🙄

I have been hesitant to jump on the anti-Islam bandwagon simply because I have no firsthand experience of such a society. It has nothing to do with wanting 'balance'. It has everything to do with not wanting to jump to a conclusion without knowledge of the facts.

I'd love to talk about Islam more. I wish we had some people of that faith posting here. If it seems like we focus on Christianity excessively, it's because it's a subject we know, and because that's who's here.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
If that's all you've got - one beheading - then allow me to point out some of the fine Christians in the US who shoot abortion doctors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_George_Tiller

They even shot him during a church service! Yeah, Christians have the right to feel smug and superior to Islam. 🙄

I have been hesitant to jump on the ...[text shortened]... on Christianity excessively, it's because it's a subject we know, and because that's who's here.

When you've finished 'spewing your Chistianophobic bigotry' perhaps you will be able do some research a find that most Christians are moderate law abiding people who follow a religion of peace.

Originally posted by divegeester
When you've finished 'spewing your Chistianophobic bigotry' perhaps you will be able do some research a find that most Christians are moderate law abiding people who follow a religion of peace.

I've not once used the term "Islamophobe". I think you may be an Atheistiphobe, though. 😛

I've done some research on religious violence in the past. Guess what? People of every religion have done lots of it. I'm sorry if I didn't get the conclusion you decided I should get. But them's the facts.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
I've not once used the term "Islamophobe". I think you may be an Atheistiphobe, though. 😛

I've done some research on religious violence in the past. Guess what? People of every religion have done lots of it. I'm sorry if I didn't get the conclusion you decided I should get. But them's the facts.

I agree, and my flippancy was aimed at some of the other accusers here.

All religious atrocities should be called out. All atrocities should be called out. Calling them out, looking at the causes of them, should not be considered bigotry even if the person doing so is a bigot. The truth is the truth, if we move from that position we lose freedom of speech and expression of opinion.

Edit: that is not to say that bigoted statements should be tolerated either.

Originally posted by divegeester
The "regime" is Islamic led, based on and enforced by Islamic religious law.

Religions don't enforce law.
Regimes do.

Originally posted by divegeester
...most Christians are moderate law abiding people who follow a religion of peace.

Yes they are and they wouldn't dream of starting
a thread like this in a Spirituality Forum.

and

... most Muslims are moderate law abiding people who follow a religion of peace.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
and... most Muslims are moderate law abiding people who follow a religion of peace.

Exactly; so let's not have anymore of this generalisation and strerotyping of Christians or Muslims.