1. Subscriberno1marauder
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    04 Dec '05 22:34
    I was watching this show concerning the September 11th attacks and it brought up an interesting ethical question. I know that most mainstream Christians believe that those who commit suicide are automatically damned. In the aftermath of the planes crashing into the WTC, some people went out to the ledges of the buildings. As the fires approached them, they jumped to the deaths; one woman was seen crossing herself before she jumped. As these people were jumping from more than the 88th floor, they knew it was suicide.

    My question: are they eternally damned?
  2. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    04 Dec '05 22:401 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I was watching this show concerning the September 11th attacks and it brought up an interesting ethical question. I know that most mainstream Christians believe that those who commit suicide are automatically damned. In the aftermath of the planes crashing into the WTC, some people went out to the ledges of the buildings. As the fires approached them, th ...[text shortened]... e than the 88th floor, they knew it was suicide.

    My question: are they eternally damned?
    Staying in the burning building would have been an act of suicide as well. There was as much chance of survival staying as jumping. It's a case of eternally damned if you do, eternally damned if you don't.
  3. Standard memberwindmill
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    04 Dec '05 22:44
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I was watching this show concerning the September 11th attacks and it brought up an interesting ethical question. I know that most mainstream Christians believe that those who commit suicide are automatically damned. In the aftermath of the planes crashing into the WTC, some people went out to the ledges of the buildings. As the fires approached them, th ...[text shortened]... e than the 88th floor, they knew it was suicide.

    My question: are they eternally damned?
    Sometimes life leaves people with a lack of options.Good point.
    If you were to commit a sin then died without repenting then would you go to hell?After thought i don't think suicide is an automatic sentencing to Hell.It would be wrong.Simple!
  4. Subscriberno1marauder
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    04 Dec '05 22:48
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Staying in the burning building would have been an act of suicide as well. There was as much chance of survival staying as jumping. It's a case of eternally damned if you do, eternally damned if you don't.
    I don't think that is a valid point. Since everybody dies at some point, suicide must be morally objectionable to the Christian mentality because YOU decide the timing of your death, not the fact of it.
  5. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    04 Dec '05 22:561 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I don't think that is a valid point. Since everybody dies at some point, suicide must be morally objectionable to the Christian mentality because YOU decide the timing of your death, not the fact of it.
    Your vacation must have left you a little rusty at recognizing valid points.

    How do you know that jumping entailed a sooner death? Maybe they were seconds away from being consumed by fire, but several more seconds from hitting the concrete, so jumping was an act of extending life. Are you saying that jumping isn't suicide in that case? You can't say that jumping is suicide in that case but staying isn't. Which is it?
  6. Subscriberno1marauder
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    04 Dec '05 23:01
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Your vacation must have left you a little rusty at recognizing valid points.

    How do you know that jumping entailed a sooner death? Maybe they were seconds away from being consumed by fire, but several more seconds from hitting the concrete, so jumping was an act of extending life. Are you saying that jumping isn't suicide in that case? You can't say that jumping is suicide in that case but staying isn't. Which is it?
    You need to review the definition of "suicide". My dictionary reads: "the act of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally". Jumping from a ledge is suicide, remaining on the ledge until you are overcome by the flames and/or smoke is not. Whether your death is sonner or not is irrelevant; you are directly deciding the timing of your death not God.
  7. Standard memberwindmill
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    04 Dec '05 23:01
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Your vacation must have left you a little rusty at recognizing valid points.

    How do you know that jumping entailed a sooner death? Maybe they were seconds away from being consumed by fire, but several more seconds from hitting the concrete, so jumping was an act of extending life. Are you saying that jumping isn't suicide in that case? You can't say that jumping is suicide in that case but staying isn't. Which is it?
    So if they jumped up higher they stood a better chance of making it to heaven?
  8. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    04 Dec '05 23:05
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    You need to review the definition of "suicide". My dictionary reads: "the act of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally". Jumping from a ledge is suicide, remaining on the ledge until you are overcome by the flames and/or smoke is not. Whether your death is sonner or not is irrelevant; you are directly deciding the timing of your death not God.
    Why isn't remaining on the ledge suicide? It is as much of an instance of voluntarily and intentionally taking one's life as jumping is.
  9. Standard memberRBHILL
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    04 Dec '05 23:072 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I was watching this show concerning the September 11th attacks and it brought up an interesting ethical question. I know that most mainstream Christians believe that those who commit suicide are automatically damned. In the aftermath of the planes crashing into the WTC, some people went out to the ledges of the buildings. As the fires approached them, th ...[text shortened]... e than the 88th floor, they knew it was suicide.

    My question: are they eternally damned?
    Not if they truly have a relationship with the Lord, They are still saved.

    Edit: Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
  10. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    04 Dec '05 23:08
    Originally posted by windmill
    So if they jumped up higher they stood a better chance of making it to heaven?
    That's one absurdity of the whole suicide doctrine.
  11. Subscriberno1marauder
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    04 Dec '05 23:09
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Why isn't remaining on the ledge suicide? It is as much of an instance of voluntarily and intentionally taking one's life as jumping is.
    Not it is not. The word "intentionally" means "intending the result". When you are staying on the ledge you are trying to avoid death; when you jump, you are intentionally taking your own life.
  12. Subscriberno1marauder
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    04 Dec '05 23:10
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    Not if they truly have a relationship with the Lord, They are still saved.
    Would God have to tell them that suicide was OK?
  13. Standard memberRBHILL
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    04 Dec '05 23:10
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Would God have to tell them that suicide was OK?
    Read the edit. I did.
  14. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    04 Dec '05 23:12
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Not it is not. The word "intentionally" means "intending the result". When you are staying on the ledge you are trying to avoid death; when you jump, you are intentionally taking your own life.
    How can you deduce the jumper's intention? Isn't is possible that their intentions were to escape the deadly flames? That is, couldn't their intentions for jumping have been the preservation of their life, especially if they had assessed that they would live longer by taking that route?

    Why do you say the jumpers intended to end their life? Becaue they knew the consequences of their actions? That doesn't distinguish them from those who stayed.
  15. Subscriberno1marauder
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    04 Dec '05 23:14
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    Read the edit. I did.
    I see. Your doctrine is if someone says they are saved they can stick a couple of two years old into a furnace and still wind up in Heaven if they get hit by a bus 5 minutes later.

    Would any sane "Christians" care to answer?
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