Originally posted by ivanhoe
Wrong conclusion. False dichotomy. You shouldn't read the Cathechism in a legalistic way.

It's written in a legalistic way.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
OK. There are no such people. The commission of suicide, or any sin, entails that one of those mitigating factors is present.

Your formulation is a bit imprecise, I'm afraid .... but, go on.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Go on.

Oh, sorry, forgot this...

QED

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Oh, sorry, forgot this...

QED

Your formulation still is not precise.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
It's written in a legalistic way.

Wrong, your interpretation is legalistic. Your whole interpretation of reality is legalistic, Dear Doctor. You oughta do something about it.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Your formulation still is not precise.

Consider these three provisions:
A: the person must have an informed intellect (know that this is wrong)
B: psychological problems
C: full consent of the will

Suppose a person sins. Consider two cases - whether he believes the act is wrong.

If the person doesn't believe it is wrong, he cannot know that it is wrong, and thus cannot have informed intellect, for one of sound mind cannot disbelieve things that one knows. To do so is indicative of psychological problems. Thus, in this case, provision A or B may be invoked by the sinner.

If the person does believe that it is wrong, and has not psychological problems, the person will refrain from committing the act, for a person without psychological problems does what he believes is right to do, in the absence of other factors that would invoke C. That is, doing something that you think you ought not do is a sign that you have psychological problems or that your will has been compromised. In this case, provision B or C may be invoked.

Thus, in all cases, a sinner can appeal to at least one of A, B, or C as a mitigating circumstance.

QED

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Answer: No.

According to the article, your answer is wrong. Since suicide is always morally wrong, only God can decide whether to mitigate punishment for the act of suicide. Thus, you or me or anybody else cannot possibly answer the question I asked in the first post.

EDIT: This qualification does not make suicide a right action in any circumstance; however, it does make us realize that the person may not be totally culpable for the action because of various circumstances or personal conditions.

Only God can read the depths of our soul. Only He knows how much we love Him and how responsible we are for our actions. We leave the judgment then to Him alone.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Consider these three provisions:
A: the person must have an informed intellect (know that this is wrong)
B: psychological problems
C: full consent

Suppose a person sins. Consider two cases - whether he believes the act is wrong.

If the person doesn't believe it is wrong, he cannot know that it is wrong, for one of sound mind cannot disbeli ...[text shortened]... ll cases, a sinner can appeal to at least one of A, B, or C as a mitigating circumstance.

QED

I hope for you that the marauder is willing and able to comment on your post. I'm looking forward to the ensuing discussion.

Originally posted by no1marauder
According to the article, your answer is wrong. Since suicide is always morally wrong, only God can decide whether to mitigate punishment for the act of suicide. Thus, you or me or anybody else cannot possibly answer the question I asked in the first post.

EDIT: This qualification does not make suicide a right action in any circumstance; however, it d ...[text shortened]... we love Him and how responsible we are for our actions. We leave the judgment then to Him alone.

marauder: "According to the article, your answer is wrong."

You mean the article the Dear Doctor posted ?

Thus, you or me or anybody else cannot possibly answer the question I asked in the first post.

So asking the question was a trick of yours ?

marauder EDIT: This qualification does not make suicide a right action in any circumstance; however, it does make us realize that the person may not be totally culpable for the action because of various circumstances or personal conditions.

Thank God for the possibility to edit a post.

Are you still convinced that my answer to your question whether those persons who jumped on sept 11 are damned, meaning sent to hell, is incorrect ?

Originally posted by no1marauder
What exceptions exist to this rule?

I wouldn't call it exceptions. Read the article the Dear Doctor posted.

Originally posted by no1marauder
[b]Since suicide is always morally wrong.

You are wrong....it depends on the situation.
....The bridge on the train tracks collapes....U are the only one who knows....a train is comming...U run down the tracks at the train and stand infront of it and intentionally take your own life?????huh!

Originally posted by no1marauder
According to the article, your answer is wrong. Since suicide is always morally wrong, only God can decide whether to mitigate punishment for the act of suicide. Thus, you or me or anybody else cannot possibly answer the question I asked in the first post.

EDIT: This qualification does not make suicide a right action in any circumstance; however, it d ...[text shortened]... we love Him and how responsible we are for our actions. We leave the judgment then to Him alone.

marauder: "Only God can read the depths of our soul. Only He knows how much we love Him and how responsible we are for our actions. We leave the judgment then to Him alone."

You're now quoting from the Dear Doctor's article and applying this on the september 11 situation. Correct ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
[b]marauder: "Only God can read the depths of our soul. Only He knows how much we love Him and how responsible we are for our actions. We leave the judgment then to Him alone."

You're now quoting from the Dear Doctor's article and applying this on the september 11 situation. Correct ?[/b]

Actually, I was quoting from the Doctor's quoted article and applying it to your answer. Your answer was : NO. The article's answer is that it's up to God. Thus, your answer is incorrect if you are relying on the same reasoning as the article. Are you?

EDIT: Remember my question was:

are they eternally damned?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Actually, I was quoting from the Doctor's quoted article and applying it to your answer. Your answer was : NO. The article's answer is that it's up to God. Thus, your answer is incorrect if you are relying on the same reasoning as the article. Are you?

EDIT: Remember my question was:

are they eternally damned?

marauder: "The article's answer is that it's up to God.

How can the article give an answer to a question which was not raised before the article was written ? You asked a question. The article did not answer your question but a different question from somebody else. The article is about someone who committed suicide under totally different conditions than those of the "jumpers".

Roman-Catholics are not allowed to assume someone is in hell, because of any action or decison taken by the person in question. That's why the author correctly states that only God can look inside a person's heart and only God can judge people 100% justly and 100% truthfully. We must trust in God's love and His willingnes to forgive. We are not allowed to assume someone is in hell.

Now, we return to the september 11 case. I stated that they are not eternally damned. You see the difference with the article's intent and your intentions ?


My answer remains: No, they are not eternally damned because of the fact that they "jumped".

If you read the article you will undoubtedly encounter the text which will support my words.

Originally posted by no1marauder
According to the article, your answer is wrong. Since suicide is always morally wrong, only God can decide whether to mitigate punishment for the act of suicide. Thus, you or me or anybody else cannot possibly answer the question I asked in the first post.

EDIT: This qualification does not make suicide a right action in any circumstance; however, it d ...[text shortened]... we love Him and how responsible we are for our actions. We leave the judgment then to Him alone.

marauder: "Thus, you or me or anybody else cannot possibly answer the question I asked in the first post."

So, the question you asked in your first post was a trick, a trap ? Right ?

You forgot to answer this question, marauder.