The Agers Challenge

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
http://babylon-the-great.xanga.com/670346913/item/

“....When Jesus Became God
At the Hand of Constantine

"In order to make the previously despised cult
of the Early Christians acceptable to Constantine,
emperor of Rome - the new (pagan) Church Fathers
had to remove from its teachings certain doctrines
which they knew were objectionab m, with only a veneer of
Christian names."

….”

...and that is just part of it.

oh dear if you notice dear Andrew, prophecy has two parts, that which is
contained in the Hebrew portion of scripture which is not the gospel and that which
finds its fulfilment in the gospel, therefore according to your erroneous assertion
, both must have been changed in order to fit the details of the Christ's life, hardly a
serious premise considering the great extent that the Hebrews went to preserve
every letter of their ancient text, even numbering the individual letters.

As for the text of the Christian Greek Scriptures its is in better condition than any
other ancient literature. Kurt and Barbara Aland, scholars of the Greek text of the
Bible, list almost 5,000 manuscripts that have survived from antiquity down to
today, some from as early as the second century C.E. The general testimony of this
mass of evidence is that the text is essentially sound. Additionally, there are many
ancient translations the earliest dating to about the year 180 C.E. that help to
prove that the text is accurate.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes i am familiar with it, but if you would like to explain it, please feel free, our dear
atheist friends need every scrap of spiritual goodness they can get their hands on!
poor things have been running on self certified statements for too long!

The prophecy of the seventy sevens or seventy weeks given to
Daniel by the angel Gabriel pinpoints the time when the Messiah
would come. (Daniel 9:24-27) I will quote one verse at a time then
give the meaning of it and how it was fulfilled.

Daniel 9:24 - Seventy weeks (sevens) have been decreed for your people
(meaning Israel) and your holy city (Jerusalem) to finish
the transgression, to make and end of sin, to make atonement
for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up
vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.

The time appointed for all of this to take place is seventy weeks of years.
Scholars have determined that prophetic time is counted in days with a
prophetic day equal to one literal calendar year in accordance with Genesis
29:26-28; Lev. 25:8; Num. 14:34; and Ezek. 4:5-6.

Therefore, 70 times 7 years = 490 years. This vision and prophecy must
be sealed up (completed) in 490 years. I believe Jesus the Christ, the most
holy anointed one, fulfilled this part of the prophecy by His atoning sacrifice
that covered the sins of those that believe in Him. The believer's transgression
of the law is forgiven and our faith is counted for everlasting righteousness.
(Romans 3:21-28; 4:1-8; 10:4; Galatians 3:11; and Philippians 3:9)

Daniel 9:25 - So you are to know and discern that from the going forth of the
decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the prince
there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks: it (Jerusalem)
will be built again with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

The decree referred to here is the one issued by Artaxeres I, who was King of
Persia from 464 to 424 B.C. See Ezra chapter 7 for a discription of what
happened. Under the accession-year system of counting the reigns, that part
of a year that a king reigned before the beginning of the official calendar year
was "the beginning of the kingship" for him and did not count as his first year
since that year counted as the last year of the previous king. Therefore,
457 B.C. would be the 7th year of Artaxerxes when the decree went forth.
The first seven weeks of years or 49 years is the time it will take to restore
Jerusalem (including inner city and defensive systems). We know from
Nehemiah 5:14 and 6:1 that in the 32nd year of King Artaxerxes the walls were
complete, but the doors in the gates were not set. This then would be the year
432 B.C. That I believe is 25 years of the 49 years accounted for but I need
help in determining when the city was completely rebuilt. If the prophecy is
correct that would be 408 B.C. The next 62 weeks of years = 434 years.
Now this brings us down to 27 A.D. This would be the year Jesus the Christ
(also referred to as the Prince of Princes) was baptized by John the Baptist
and annointed by the Holy Spirit as the Messiah. This baptism of Jesus by
John is believed, by scholars, to have happened in early Fall of the year.
(Matt. 4:16: Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:33).

Daniel 9:26 - Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and
have nothing, and the people of the of the prince who is to come
will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come
with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are
determined.

These things are to occur after the the sixty-two week period ended in 27 A.D.
I believe it was at the Passover in 31 A.D., which is in the middle of the final
week of the Seventy weeks of years, that Jesus fulfilled this prophecy by
being cut off (separated) from God for the penalty of sin for all mankind by
His crucifixion. He was made to be sin on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:21). At that
time He had nothing, for even His clothes were taken from Him and divided
among the soldiers (Matt. 27:35). I believe the final part of this verse refers
to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans in 70 A.D.
This incident occurred after the seventy weeks of years, but since it is not a
requirement to fulfill the original prophecy in verses 24 and 25, there is nothing
that confines it to the seventy week period (490 years) from 457 B.C. to 34 A.D.
In the Spring of 67 A.D. General Vespasian was ordered by Roman Emperor Nero
to put down a Jewish revolt against Rome. After the overthrow and suicide of
Nero, Vespasian was declared emperor in the Spring of 70 A.D. His son, Titus,
was left in charge of the military campaign against Jerusalem. I believe he is
the prince who is to come because he destroyed the city (Jerusalem) and the
sanctuary (temple). The word "flood" is probably a metaphor referring to the
pouring in of the Roman army through the breaches made in the walls of the
city. (Compare Daniel 11:22 were the word is translated "overflowing " army).
I believe the last part of the final sentence predicts wars will continue and the
sanctuary (temple) will remain desolate until the appointed time determined for
the Gentiles is fulfilled (Luke 21:24).

Daniel 9:27 - And he (Jesus) will make a firm covenant with the many for one
week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain
offering; and on the wing of abomination will come one who makes desolate,
even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the
one who makes desolate.

I believe the first part of this verse relates to the first part of verse 26 and
the last part of this verse relates to the last part of verse 26. The first part
of verse 27 refers to the new covenant that Jesus began making from the
Autumn of 27 A.D. when He began His ministry until 34 A.D. when the
outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Gentile believers sealed the new
salvation covenant as an absolute certainty (Acts 10:45; Heb. 8:6-13).
The word "firm" indicates the covenant is "sure". The new covenant that
Jesus made with the many (Matthew 26:28) was made firm (sure and enduring
Hebrews 9:14-15). By His supreme sacrifice Jesus abolished the need for the
ritual sacrifices that could not take away sin. He offered His body to sanctify
the believers once and for all. (Hebrews 120:1-10) The term "the many"
originates in Isaiah 53:11-12, which describes the Messiah's death to atone for
and justify "the many" transgressors by bearing their sins in order to make
reconciliation for iniquity, and therefore, to bring in everlasting righteousness to
"the Many" that accept Him as their intercessor. This appears to be the same
idea as expressed in Daniel 9:24 of the prophecy.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
oh dear if you notice dear Andrew, prophecy has two parts, that which is
contained in the Hebrew portion of scripture which is not the gospel and that which
finds its fulfilment in the gospel, therefore according to your erroneous assertion
, both must have been changed in order to fit the details of the Christ's life, hardly a
serious premise ...[text shortened]... the earliest dating to about the year 180 C.E. that help to
prove that the text is accurate.

Erm no. One could have easily Billy Bullchitted what was in the Gospels to fit what was in the older writings such that you folks would gaze in amazement about all the prophecies that were 'fulfilled'. Nothing remarkable there

Originally posted by Agerg
Erm no. One could have easily Billy Bullchitted what was in the Gospels to fit what was in the older writings such that you folks would gaze in amazement about all the prophecies that were 'fulfilled'. Nothing remarkable there

sooo you who have no experience and no knowledge of ancient manuscripts
have stated that despite there being five thousand extant manuscripts, you know
better. excuse me while i feel my bum to make sure i am still alive.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
sooo you who have no experience and no knowledge of ancient manuscripts
have stated that despite there being five thousand extant manuscripts, you know
better. excuse me while i feel my bum to make sure i am still alive.

Yes I'll excuse you to feel your bum to check if there are any more words in it.

Anyhow, the situation is quite simple: old texts asserts X will happen, someone comes along later having read the old texts writes that X happened in a newer collection of texts...and this is remarkable why??? 😕

Originally posted by Agerg
Yes I'll excuse you to feel your bum to check if there are any more words in it.

Anyhow, the situation is quite simple: old texts asserts X will happen, someone comes along later having read the old texts writes that X happened in a newer collection of texts...and this is remarkable why??? 😕

why, because the authors lived at different epochs of history, did not fully understand
what they were writing, had different backgrounds and education and in some
instances were fishermen who were prepared to undergo jail, totrure, floggings and
death because of the things they had seen and heard, that is why! Its not an ordinary
thing smagglepuss!

tell the forum Agers how a carpenter from Galilee managed to influence men to the
extent that he has, tell us the likelihood of such an occurrence?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
oh dear if you notice dear Andrew, prophecy has two parts, that which is
contained in the Hebrew portion of scripture which is not the gospel and that which
finds its fulfilment in the gospel, therefore according to your erroneous assertion
, both must have been changed in order to fit the details of the Christ's life, hardly a
serious premise ...[text shortened]... the earliest dating to about the year 180 C.E. that help to
prove that the text is accurate.

“...therefore according to your erroneous assertion ...”

what assertion of mine?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“...therefore according to your erroneous assertion ...”

what assertion of mine?

that the text have undergone significant corruption, what else!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
that the text have undergone significant corruption, what else!

But I didn't assert that, I implied that (via posting that post) . -sorry, I just like to be pedantic pain in the ***.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
But I didn't assert that, I implied that (via posting that post) . -sorry, I just like to be pedantic.

its ok, I dont mind, at least you had a bite at the cherry 🙂

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
why, because the authors lived at different epochs of history, did not fully understand
what they were writing, had different backgrounds and education and in some
instances were fishermen who were prepared to undergo jail, totrure, floggings and
death because of the things they had seen and heard, that is why! Its not an ordinary
thing smag ...[text shortened]... aged to influence men to the
extent that he has, tell us the likelihood of such an occurrence?

It is far more plausible to assume that all the authors knew they were deliberately writing the prophecies true afterwards, and just pattern matching their tales to what had been written by earlier authors (or perhaps were shafted over by the more intelligent people who wanted to write what the fishermen wrote (bu didn't want to be killed themselves)) than assuming all the nonsense you believe actually happened.


Perhaps 'Jesus of Galilee' inspired no one and just became an unwitting martyr when someone figured his death could be exploited to fulfill a prophecy. People then write all sorts of tales about him and so on...

Originally posted by Agerg
It is far more plausible to assume that all the authors knew they were deliberately writing the prophecies true afterwards, and just pattern matching their tales to what had been written by earlier authors (or perhaps were shafted over by the more intelligent people who wanted to write what the fishermen wrote (bu didn't want to be killed themselves)) than ass an unwitting martyr when someone figured his death could be exploited to fulfill a prophecy.

more plausible, hows it more plausible if its based on nothingness and a conspiracy
theory and a cynical disposition???, what bumf, you cannot handle the fact of
inspiration attested to by hundreds of prophecies, corroborated through secular history
and archeological evidence, it must be a bitter pil to swallow dear Agers, in fact, i may
write a play, the rise and fall of Agers, a tragedy, a lust for power and great fall which
put humpty dumpty out the game!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
more plausible, hows it more plausible if its based on nothingness and a conspiracy
theory and a cynical disposition???, what bumf, you cannot handle the fact of
inspiration attested to by hundreds of prophecies, corroborated through secular history
and archeological evidence, it must be a bitter pil to swallow dear Agers, in fact, i may
writ ...[text shortened]... all of Agers, a tragedy, a lust for power and great fall which
put humpty dumpty out the game!

There is much to gain from fabricating the Jesus myth by people who wish to control the masses with religion. The prophecies could easily have been written true by later authors and for those who you assert were lesser educated and didn't understand what they were writing could have been screwed over by those that did.

Take for example RBHILL, perhaps one of the most 'gifted' posters to grace these boards. It is easy to imagine someone coming along and paying him off with three 'magic beans' to write some garbage knowing he might get killed for it afterwards.

Originally posted by Agerg
There is much to gain from fabricating the Jesus myth by people who wish to control the masses with religion. The prophecies could easily have been written true by later authors and for those who you assert were lesser educated and didn't understand what they were writing could have been screwed over by those that did.

Take for example RBHILL, perhaps one o th three 'magic beans' to write some garbage knowing he might get killed for it afterwards.

lol, people who wish to control the masses with religion, write sooooo they invent a carpenter from Galilee and his fishermen friends.????

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
lol, people who wish to control the masses with religion, write sooooo they invent a carpenter from Galilee and his fishermen friends.????

Far more plausible than virgin births, magic gardens etc... Doesn't require any appeals to the supernatural, simply an appeal to human nature ;]