Originally posted by DarfiusI see that. It is a command from God to slaughter the Midianites
I put the relevant part in bold.
(and I don't see anywhere nearby that the Midianites attacked the
Jews, but maybe it is somewhere else).
This was not in dispute.
What is in dispute is that the Midianites made a 'decision' (your word)
to turn away from God. That is, that the Midianites (most notably the
women and children) had some opportunity to repent of whatever it
was that irritated 'God' so much, that they made a decision not to be
'righteous Gentiles' before the Jews slaughtered them.
(Recall that you wrote:
Are you aware that there was such a thing as "righteous Gentiles" before Jesus came? If they adhered to the Law of Moses, and were circumcised, they could go to heaven.
and
They made their decision beforehand when they attacked the Jews, which unfortunately isn't mentioned in Numbers 31.)
Nemesio
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioIt was well known that the Jews claimed to know the only true God.
I see that. It is a command from God to slaughter the Midianites
(and I don't see anywhere nearby that the Midianites attacked the
Jews, but maybe it is somewhere else).
This was not in dispute.
What is in dispute is that the Midi ...[text shortened]... hich unfortunately isn't mentioned in Numbers 31.[/i])
Nemesio
Also:
25:1 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. 25:2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. 25:3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim. 25:4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah. Genesis
Clearly somewhere along the line, Midian's line stopped worshipping the true God that they knew from Abraham.
Originally posted by DarfiusI don't dispute your assumption.
Clearly somewhere along the line, Midian's line stopped worshipping the true God that they knew from Abraham.
However, you are not addressing your assertion that
the Midianites made a decision not to be become 'righteous Gentiles'
before they were annihilated by the Jews.
In fact, do you even know what the 'Just' reason was for their
destruction? I don't.
Nemesio
2 edits
Originally posted by NemesioWell, if you attack someone, it generally means you don't agree with them.
I don't dispute your assumption.
However, you are not addressing [b]your assertion that
the Midianites made a decision not to be become 'righteous Gentiles'
before they were annihilated by the Jews.
In fact, do you even know ...[text shortened]... 'Just' reason was for their
destruction? I don't.
Nemesio[/b]
6:1 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD: and the LORD delivered them into the hand of Midian seven years. 6:2 And the hand of Midian prevailed against Israel: and because of the Midianites the children of Israel made them the dens which are in the mountains, and caves, and strong holds. 6:3And so it was, when Israel had sown, that the Midianites came up, and the Amalekites, and the children of the east, even they came up against them; 6:4 And they encamped against them, and destroyed the increase of the earth, till thou come unto Gaza, and left no sustenance for Israel, neither sheep, nor ox, nor ass. 6:5 For they came up with their cattle and their tents, and they came as grasshoppers for multitude; for both they and their camels were without number: and they entered into the land to destroy it. 6:6 And Israel was greatly impoverished because of the Midianites; and the children of Israel cried unto the LORD.
6:7 And it came to pass, when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD because of the Midianites, 6:8 That the LORD sent a prophet unto the children of Israel, which said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I brought you up from Egypt, and brought you forth out of the house of bondage; 6:9 And I delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of all that oppressed you, and drave them out from before you, and gave you their land; 6:10 And I said unto you, I am the LORD your God; fear not the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but ye have not obeyed my voice.
Book of Judges
Originally posted by DarfiusThings are coming into focus. (These old histories are not my
Well, if you attack someone, it generally means you don't agree with them.
6:1 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD: and the LORD delivered them into the hand of Midian seven years. 6:2 And the hand of Midian prevailed against Israel: and because of the Midianites the children of Israel made them the dens which are in the moun ...[text shortened]... of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but ye have not obeyed my voice.
Book of Judges
Biblical strong point, to be sure.)
Ok. So the Midianites fell from the wagon of the true faith and
were sieging the Israelites. God permitted this to happen because
Israel had 'done evil in the sight of the Lord.' But, after seven years,
the people had learned their lesson and rose up and smote the
Midianites as per God's command.
Is this a fair summary? Yes? No?
Now, I'll ask you, do you think that it was just to slaughter the
children of the Midianites as was evidently commanded? What sin
did they do?
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioYes, I think that's a fair summary.
Things are coming into focus. (These old histories are not my
Biblical strong point, to be sure.)
Ok. So the Midianites fell from the wagon of the true faith and
were sieging the Israelites. God permitted this to happen because
Israel had 'done evil in the sight of the Lord.' But, after seven years,
the people had learned their lesson and rose ...[text shortened]... the
children of the Midianites as was evidently commanded? What sin
did they do?
Nemesio
First of all, I should reiterate that the female children were spared. This is a surprising act of mercy considering the legal/ethical responsibilities of the day.
Secondly, there would have been very FEW babies (just populations of the day). Most of the male children were old enough to have seen what happened, but not old enough to fight. Do you think they would conveniantly forget that the Israelites had killed their fathers and whorish mothers? And Israel at the time was not America of today. We can feed/clothe/house prisoners of war. They cannot. This situation was FORCED onto the Israelites (self defense). When these boys grew older, they likely would have rebelled and died in their sin.
When the Israelites killed them (as humanely and quickly as possible) they died innocent and went to Heaven. In God's eyes (our eyes don't matter) what is more important, life on earth or in Heaven?
In light of all of that, yes, I think the humane killings of enemies of war was justified, in the eyes of God, and since He is infinitely more wise than me, mine as well.
2 edits
Originally posted by DarfiusYou and Osama would get along great together. You are aware that Moses himself was protected by a Midianite high priest after he fled Egypt as a young man and married a Midianite, aren't you? Exodus 2: 15-22 So without the Midianites Moses would't have been around to lead the people from Egypt. So when exactly did they fall from good graces?
Yes, I think that's a fair summary.
First of all, I should reiterate that the female children were spared. This is a surprising act of mercy considering the legal/ethical responsibilities of the day.
Secondly, there would have b ...[text shortened]... God, and since He is infinitely more wise than me, mine as well.
The slaughtering of entire populations was virtually unheard of in ancient times and keeping a bunch of virgin girls around to be play toys ain't very humane. The Israelites themselves were conquered several times but nobody treated them the way they treated the Midianites. And killing kids because they might grow up to hate the murderers of their parents could be used as an excuse for such practices in ANY war in ANY country.
Your knowledge of ancient history, your own Bible and sense of human decency all stink, Darfius.
Originally posted by no1marauderCan you show me where the entire tribe of Midianites was destroyed? I see only 5 war chiefs and their people being destroyed.
You and Osama would get along great together. You are aware that Moses himself was protected by a Midianite high priest after he fled Egypt and married a Midianite, aren't you Exodus 2: 15-22 ? So without the Midianites Moses would't have been around to lead the people from Egypt. So when exactly did they fall from good graces?
The sla ...[text shortened]... knowledge of ancient history, your own Bible and sense of human decency all stink, Darfius.
Your knowledge of most everything is despicable, no1, but I still love you.
Originally posted by Darfius
First of all, I should reiterate that the female children were spared. This is a surprising act of mercy considering the legal/ethical responsibilities of the day.
They were spared for carnal reasons, Darfius. But let's let this
pass. I think it's obvious, but it's not particularly relevant for my
point here.
Secondly, there would have been very FEW babies (just populations of the day).
So, they spared the female children, but not a 'few' male babies.
(I'm not sure I buy your 'populations of the day' bit, but I don't
think it makes a difference).
This does not sound like justice to me.
And Israel at the time was not America of today. We can feed/clothe/house prisoners of war. They cannot.
But they had the means to take in female virgins.......
This is a suspect argument, Darfius.
This situation was FORCED onto the Israelites (self defense). When these boys grew older, they likely would have rebelled and died in their sin.
I'll agree that anyone older than say 8 might, but any younger, I don't
agree. If the Israelites had the means to keep female virgins around
then they had the means to keep a few male babies around.
As such, I feel that justice was not served in this case.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioCarnal reasons? Can ANYONE back up this pure conjecture? The females were spared because even if they rebelled, what harm could they do? And why would the Israelites be so reverent to God in everything but not raping women?
Originally posted by Darfius
[b]First of all, I should reiterate that the female children were spared. This is a surprising act of mercy considering the legal/ethical responsibilities of the day.
They were spared for carnal reasons, Darfius. But let's let this
pass. I think it's obvious, but it's not particularly relevant for my
poin ...[text shortened]... few male babies around.
As such, I feel that justice was not served in this case.
Nemesio[/b]
Originally posted by Darfius32,000 female virgins were spared Darius; what percentage of the population do you think female virgins were? I'm guessing that at least 200,000 people died in your slaughter, but let's be generous and say "only" 100,000 people were massacred. Something of that size is unheard of in any ancient history that I have ever heard of; prisoners were commonly enslaved but not slaughtered to this extent.
Can you show me where the entire tribe of Midianites was destroyed? I see only 5 war chiefs and their people being destroyed.
Your knowledge of most everything is despicable, no1, but I still love you.
I won't bother to keep arguing about the fact that the Midianite girls were raped; if you think they kept 32,000 young girls around to do the dishes and sweep the floors you're deranged. If they were going to use them only as household servants they would have spared the non-virgin women, too. But believe what you want, no matter how irrational.
And I'd like a comment on Exodus 2: 15-22 in relation to your argument that the Midianites were "evil".
Originally posted by Nemesiothis is from the book of Joshua
Originally posted by Darfius
[b]First of all, I should reiterate that the female children were spared. This is a surprising act of mercy considering the legal/ethical responsibilities of the day.
They were spared for carnal reasons, Darfius. But let's let this
pass. I think it's obvious, but it's not particularly relevant for my
poin ...[text shortened]... few male babies around.
As such, I feel that justice was not served in this case.
Nemesio[/b]
10:40 So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south,
and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none
remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of
Israel commanded.
10:42 And all these kings and their land did Joshua take at one time,
because the LORD God of Israel fought for Israel
and theses got the Jehrico treatment
THe Cities::
Jehrico
6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and
woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the
sword.
Ai
8:26 For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.
10:29 Libnah
10:31 Lachish
10:34 Eglon
10:38 Debir
Originally posted by no1marauderYou're making assumptions based on a belief God doesn't exist. If God exists, and He chose to pass judgement on the whorish women through the Israelites, how can you say He was wrong in that? Why is your moral code better than God's?
32,000 female virgins were spared Darius; what percentage of the population do you think female virgins were? I'm guessing that at least 200,000 people died in your slaughter, but let's be generous and say "only" 100,000 people were massacred. Something of that size is unheard of in any ancient history that I have ever heard of; prisoners wer ...[text shortened]... ike a comment on Exodus 2: 15-22 in relation to your argument that the Midianites were "evil".
100,000? That's a gigantic number. Let's look at how many Israelites went to war. 12,000. Did 12,000 Israelites go to war against 40-50,000 Midianites? If there were 32,000 female virgins, let's say there were 20,000 boys. If there were 3 or 4 kids per family, that's roughly 12,000 sets of parents. Which means 12k men died in battle, 12k whorish women received the judgement of God and 20,000 kids went to Heaven. So, I would say at most 32,000 people were humanely killed. Which equals the number of people who were mercifully spared.
And you won't argue about your opinion that they were raped because you know the Israelites (who did everything for God) wouldn't have done it.
There were many different smaller tribes within the larger tribe of Midianites. Obviously some helped Moses, and later some others were corrupted by evil. Just like there are 12 tribes of Israel.
Originally posted by frogstompStart a new thread or don't expect an answer.
this is from the book of Joshua
10:40 So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south,
and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none
remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of
Israel commanded.
10:42 And all these kings and their land did Joshua take at one time,
because the LORD ...[text shortened]... ly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.
10:29 Libnah
10:31 Lachish
10:34 Eglon
10:38 Debir