Originally posted by NemesioDoes the Vatican have its own version of Latin? I seem to remember you mentioning something along those lines many months back, but I believe my posting privileges were curtailed and I was not able to participate in the discussion to follow up on it.
DOH!
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
I should have said:
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/latinmass2.html
Good catch. It's been a very long time since I've heard
a Latin Mass.
Nemesio
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioYou are indeed an arrogant Slimy Toad, .......
No. It has nothing to do with cowardice, though you may comfort yourself
to believe it.
It has to do with conviction. You believe that it is your 'vocation' to 'preach'
to people. That is your right. In so doing, you open you ...[text shortened]... gross misrepresentation
of Him through their religion.
Nemesio
When you joined Forum Wars, a long time ago, after Cribs was banned, I was a bit surprised why you chose to hang out with these self-righteous, indeed pharasaic arrogant bigots like Bbarr, Rwingett, Cribs, No1 and several others. I called you a traitor then. I was mistaken. You are actually one of them. The lot of you look upon yourselves as being better than the irrational mob. You're looking down on people and you don't even notice it. You got used to it, you ridiculous clown.
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesThe Roman Church uses what is called 'Italiate Latin.' That is, the
Does the Vatican have its own version of Latin? I seem to remember you mentioning something along those lines many months back, but I believe my posting privileges were curtailed and I was not able to participate in the discussion to follow up on it.
vernacular and means of pronunciation derive from the Italian dialect.
Obviously, this occurred historically because the Holy See is in modern-
day Italy (for all intents and purposes). This Latin is pronounced quite
differently than you are taught in Classical Latin class. Also, there are
some variations on spelling (michi instead of mihi, or anime instead of
animae -- and even this is inconsistent).
Other countries have different ways of pronouncing Latin. For example,
Germanate Latin pronounces the word 'Coeli' as 'Koeli' rather than 'Chelli'
or the word 'germina' with a hard rather than soft 'g.' (The Greek 'Kyrie'
is pronounced 'Koo-ri-e.'😉 English Latin is slightly different and French
Latin is (to my ears) nearly unintelligible. The 'official' pronounciation,
though, of the Roman Church is 'Italianate Latin.'
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioThis is very interesting to me.
The Roman Church uses what is called 'Italiate Latin.' That is, the
vernacular and means of pronunciation derive from the Italian dialect.
Obviously, this occurred historically because the Holy See is in modern-
day Italy (for all intents and purposes). This Latin is pronounced quite
differently than you are taught in Classical Latin class. Also, th ...[text shortened]... he 'official' pronounciation,
though, of the Roman Church is 'Italianate Latin.'
Nemesio
So, when Latin Mass is held in Hamburg, it would be read in Italiate Latin or Germanic Latin? If it would be held in Italiate Latin, where would one ever come across Germanic Latin nowadays? Anywhere? In German high schools teaching Classical Latin?
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesMasses in Latin in Hamburg would, of course, utilize the Germanic pronunciation.
So, when Latin Mass is held in Hamburg, it would be read in Italiate Latin or Germanic Latin? If it would be held in Italiate Latin, where would one ever come across Germanic Latin nowadays? Anywhere? In German high schools teaching Classical Latin?
It's not forbidden or 'inferior.' It's just, if you purchased 'The Latin Mass' audio
tapes for seminary from Rome (with the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur and
everything else), it would utilize Italianate pronunciation.
Classical Latin is what is taught in high schools (gymnasia, right?) with Classical
pronunciation. Medieval Latin is seldom taught below the graduate level in my
experience (Medieval = early Church Latin).
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioI see. Is there a Dutch variety of Latin for mass, or is it the same as Germanic?
Masses in Latin in Hamburg would, of course, utilize the Germanic pronunciation.
It's not forbidden or 'inferior.' It's just, if you purchased 'The Latin Mass' audio
tapes for seminary from Rome (with the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur and
everything else), it would utilize Italianate pronunciation.
What about when Latin Mass is given in Asian countries that naturally use completely different phonetics?
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesTo tell you the truth, I simply don't know.
I see. Is there a Dutch variety of Latin for mass, or is it the same as Germanic?
What about when Latin Mass is given in Asian countries that naturally use completely different phonetics?
In fact, I think you've basically tapped out the extent of my knowledge
of this. The reason I know this much is because, in terms of 'historic
performance practice,' sacred Germanic pieces (Roman Rite) are pronounced
differently than sacred Italiante pieces, &c &c.
That is, when I conduct the Agnus Dei from Bach's b minor Mass, I tell
my choir to sing the words differently than a setting by Vivaldi.
Ivanhoe will have to field the Dutch question; I genuinely don't know (although
I suspect it is very similar to the Germanic). He may not know, either, because
he may not attend Tridentine services (i.e., Latin ones). Furthermore, they
may opt to use the Italian pronunciation just because things are increasingly
standardized in this day and age.
In Idon'thavealltheanswersship,
Nemesio
Originally posted by ivanhoeThat's very kind of you Ivanhoe.
You are indeed an arrogant Slimy Toad, .......
Toads are rather pleasant creatures - they were just given a rather unfortunate reputation when the Inquisition was busy torturing women in the name of the LORD.
Give me a slimy toad anyday over those who simply believe that they should be immortal...after all, that's the only thing fundamentalist religion offers - immortality to its followers.
Originally posted by MaustrauserRIBBIT!
That's very kind of you Ivanhoe.
Toads are rather pleasant creatures - they were just given a rather unfortunate reputation when the Inquisition was busy torturing women in the name of the LORD.
Give me a slimy toad anyday over those who simply believe that they should be immortal...after all, that's the only thing fundamentalist religion offers - immortality to its followers.
