31 Oct 11
9 edits
Originally posted by Zahlanzi
it is quite disturbing that when i mention the notion of pleasure from sex, you jump to deviate, psychotic behavior. if i mention the pleasure of eating chocolate will you mention how some people might enjoy throwing hot boiling chocolate in someones eyes?
what part of consenting adults don't you understand?
it is quite disturbing that when i mention the notion of pleasure from sex, you jump to deviate, psychotic behavior.
I find it equally disturbing that you feel some need to claim the Bible accepts homosexuality just because you can reason that it is okay.
My reasons for disagreeing with your claim that "the Bible accepts homosexuality" include the following as proof that you are wrong:
If I say the Bible accepts homosexuality then one also, according to the context of Romans 1, should say that the bible accepts:
"all unrighteousness,
wickednesss,
coveteousness,
malice,
full of envy,
murder,
strife,
deceit,
malignity,
whisperers,
slanderers,
hateful to God,
insolent,
arrogant,
boasters,
inventors of evil things,
disobedient to parents,
sensless,
faithless,
affectionless,
merciless ..." (Romans 1:29-31)
These matters are mentioned in the same chapter where Paul explains the decline of human society and the reason for the judgment of God upon the people of the world.
The same section speaks of homosexuality - "... likewise also the males, leaving the natural use of the female, burned in their craving toward one another, males with males committing unseemliness ...
And even as they did not approve of holding God in [their] full knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things which are not fitting , being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, malice ... etc." (See Rom. 1:26-29)
You see the homosexual "error" is condemned along with these other sins. None are "accepted" by the Bible. And at the end of this section of the just condemnation upon all mankind in general, the Apostle Paul writes:
"Who, though fully knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do them, but also have fellow delight in those who practice them." (Rom. 1:32)
He is saying that those who practice such things as he has named, in the eyes of God. "are worthy of death". So I don't believe that "the Bible accepts homosexuality" as you write.
A little further in the same epistle Paul writes this:
"Therefore you are without excuse, O every man who judges, for in what you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things." (Rom. 2:1)
This tells me that I too was under God's condemntation. All who judge are under condemnation because we all have done at least some of the "errors" and others not mentioned which are worthy of God's condemnation.
There is more. The next passage says "But we know that the judgement of God is according to truth upon those who practice such things." (2:2)
The judgment of God, Paul says, "is according to truth". According to truth God is righteous to condemn the sinner. It is not a relative matter. It is not a matter of consenting adults. It is a matter of what is "truth".
Fortunately this is only the Second chapter of the book of Romans. The following chapters go into God's salvation from the righteous condemnation. The following chapters devulge His love and mercy for the sinners of ALL types. And the following chapters talk about justification from sins and santification from its power.
Starting from chapter 3:21 - 5:11 the definition of God's Justification from sins is elaborated on. The Bible does not accept homosexuality. But the bible does not stop with its rejection. The rejection of homosexuality is not the last word of the Bible.
From 5:12 - 8:13 Paul goes on from the action of God's justification of the guilty condemned sinner to God's way of the transformation through sanctification of the sinner. And the 8th chapter covers how formally condemned sinners are conformed to be glorious sons of God.
The Bible accepts repentent sinners being justified, forgiven, sanctified and conformed from offenders to be glorious sons of God "conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers" (See Rom. 8:28,29) .
31 Oct 11
Originally posted by jaywillmost of the reasonable people here have understood this thread was meant mostly as a joke. i merely pointed out how one could reach to all sorts of conclusions when taking some events portrayed in the bible literally.
The title of this thread you started is [b] "The Bible accepts homosexuality"
Which part of "sin against God" do you not understand ?
If you want to argue that in a society's governing laws, whatever is done by "mutual consent" is legal, then that may be another issue. I don't think you are arguing that way. I think you are going beyond to im ...[text shortened]... sex as an abomination in need of forgiveness and sanctification do you not understand ?[/b]
it is quite clear what the bible's stance on homosexuality is. it isn't clear however how god thinks about it. i like to think that a god of love wouldn't care that two people being in love and wanting to have a family and grow old together both have penises.
would you think that two men not having sex with each other but loving one another is an abomination? if not, then you are not against gay love but gay sex. then one would follow that masturbation is an abomination too? so in a world filled with murder and hate, god cares that people dare to pleasure themselves without procreation in mind
you have some messed up priorities.
31 Oct 11
Originally posted by Zahlanzi
most of the reasonable people here have understood this thread was meant mostly as a joke. i merely pointed out how one could reach to all sorts of conclusions when taking some events portrayed in the bible literally.
it is quite clear what the bible's stance on homosexuality is. it isn't clear however how god thinks about it. i like to think that a ...[text shortened]... e to pleasure themselves without procreation in mind
you have some messed up priorities.
would you think that two men not having sex with each other but loving one another is an abomination? if not, then you are not against gay love but gay sex. then one would follow that masturbation is an abomination too? so in a world filled with murder and hate, god cares that people dare to pleasure themselves without procreation in mind
you have some messed up priorities.
Okay, let start over again sense I missed your humor. And this time because of time constrain I will not labor on proof texts.
It is not at all a matter of what I like. It is not that.
The indulgence of hetero or homo sexual greedy, unbridled, over the top, lust God deems as a form of idolatry and damages the humanity which He created for His purpose.
It damages the vessel that God created. It warps and twists the humanity which God created for His own expression and glory.
Your beef is that it is no one's business. The Bible's teaching is that everything man does is ULTIMATELY the business of God.
I have beloved members of my own family who are in the gay lifestyle. I lost a younger brother to HIV in the gay community in San Fransisco.
Jesus loves them. I love them in Christ, in the Lord Jesus. And we are all in need of salvation.
That is all the time I have right now.
Jesus looks beyond our faults and sees our needs. But God is still a righteous God of truth.
31 Oct 11
1 edit
John was Jesus' lover.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jegay.htm
"In the Gospel of John, the disciple John frequently refers to himself in the third person as 'the disciple whom Jesus loved'." 4 One might argue that Jesus loved all of his followers in a non-sexual way. Thus to identify Jesus' love for John in a special way might indicate a sexual relationship. The disciple was "the" beloved. He was in a class by himself.
During the Last Supper before Jesus' execution, the author(s) of the Gospel of John describes how the "beloved" disciple laid himself on Jesus' inner tunic -- his undergarment. See John 13:25 and 21:20. Robert Goss, assistant professor of comparative religion at Webster University in St. Louis, LA, noted that Jesus and the beloved disciple: "... eat together, side by side. What's being portrayed here is a pederastic relationship between an older man and a younger man. A Greek reader would understand."
Let's not forget Mark 14:51-52 either.
31 Oct 11
1 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoungJohn Mark may have been gay, but that does not go for Jesus.
John was Jesus' lover.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jegay.htm
"In the Gospel of John, the disciple John frequently refers to himself in the third person as 'the disciple whom Jesus loved'." 4 One might argue that Jesus loved all of his followers in a non-sexual way. Thus to identify Jesus' love for John in a special way might indicat A Greek reader would understand."
Let's not forget Mark 14:51-52 either.
I understand there are different words in the Greek for different
types of love. I have not looked it up; but I am reasonably sure
that robbie carobbie could tell you if he used the term meaning
sexual love or not. He is very concerned about what the Bible
actually says in the original languages he tells me.
31 Oct 11
Originally posted by jaywillyour problem is that you think that a god of love only loves you if you conform to a strict model of what a christian is.
[quote] would you think that two men not having sex with each other but loving one another is an abomination? if not, then you are not against gay love but gay sex. then one would follow that masturbation is an abomination too? so in a world filled with murder and hate, god cares that people dare to pleasure themselves without procreation in mind
you ha ...[text shortened]... Jesus looks beyond our faults and sees our needs. But God is still a righteous God of truth.
the problem is jesus is that model and only he is without blame. humans are less than perfect. some are weak and succumb to vices, like stealing, rage, duplicity, etc. some have other vices: eating too much chocolate, watching jersey shore even though it's stupid.
homosexuality (gay love, not a dude doinking other dudes in a parking lot) "warps" and "twists" humanity as much as eating chocolate does. actually, scratch that, not even that much.
to claim homosexuality is a sin, and to place it in the same bag as stealing, rape and murder is six different flavors of wrong.
" The Bible's teaching is that everything man does is ULTIMATELY the business of God. " the bible also teaches us that it is righteous too obliterate the population of an entire city of the face of the earth simply so that the "chosen" would have place for their cribs. the bible also teaches that god killed job's sons and daughters and who knows how many servants and their families just to have a little bet with satan.
the bible is not really a reliable source when it comes to teaching about god.
or granted, it might be. in which case we are fuked.
31 Oct 11
Originally posted by ZahlanziThe "we" obviously means non-Christians.
your problem is that you think that a god of love only loves you if you conform to a strict model of what a christian is.
the problem is jesus is that model and only he is without blame. humans are less than perfect. some are weak and succumb to vices, like stealing, rage, duplicity, etc. some have other vices: eating too much chocolate, watching je ...[text shortened]... comes to teaching about god.
or granted, it might be. in which case we are fuked.
31 Oct 11
Originally posted by ZahlanziYou are so blind by the enemy of our souls.
for all you "christians" saying homosexuality is an abomination before god, here is a little tidbit of information:
god made eve from the rib of adam
therefore eve had the same DNA as adam
therefore eve had the same sex chromosome as adam
therefore eve was a dude
a dude who had sex with adam
therefore eve and adam were gay incestous twins.
...[text shortened]... e same gender, stop to think that the first humans were adam and steve and they were in love.
31 Oct 11
11 edits
Originally posted by Zahlanzi
your problem is that you think that a god of love only loves you if you conform to a strict model of what a christian is.
the problem is jesus is that model and only he is without blame. humans are less than perfect. some are weak and succumb to vices, like stealing, rage, duplicity, etc. some have other vices: eating too much chocolate, watching je comes to teaching about god.
or granted, it might be. in which case we are fuked.
your problem is that you think that a god of love only loves you if you conform to a strict model of what a christian is.
I quoted you from the book of Romans. It clearly shows that while all mankind is under condemnation, His love for ALL of mankind motivates Him to provide a salvation to all.
In chapter 5 we read - "But God commends His own love to us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." (Rom. 5:8)
1.) Paul includes himself - "while WE were yet sinners ...".
2.) All sinners are included which would conformers and non-conformers.
3.) Christ died a redemptive death while they were still in the state of non-conforming sinners - "WHILE ... we were YET SINNERS" .
4.) God did not demand that the non-comforming sinners change before believing into Christ for salvation.
"For while we were yet WEAK, in due time Christ died for the ungodly" (5:6)
5.) The previous passages showed that even those conformists who were not reconciled through Christ were also under judgement just in view of the fact that they themselves are guilty of sining:
"Therefore you are without excuse, O every man who judges, for in what you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things." (2:1)
6.) There is no respector of persons with God in this matter of His judgment -
"For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without the law shall also perish without the law; and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law." (2:12)
7.) Paul makes a case that the law keeping Jews are also no better and under condemnation - "What then? Are we better ? Not at all For we have previously charged both Jews and Gentiles that they are all under sin, Even as it is written. 'There is none righteous, not even one ..." (3:9,10)
This section of the Bible condemning homosexuality only includes it in the sins which put all people, one way or another, in a position of enemies of God in need of Christ's redemption.
the problem is jesus is that model and only he is without blame.
I agree. And this "model" we must receive into our being. He became in a form in which He is available to enter into our innermost spiritual being:
"the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
He is the only Righteous One. And He becomes our very righteous standing before God. There is no disagreement from me that only Jesus Christ is perfect. That still does not erase homosexuality as one of the sins the Bible enumerates as putting men in enmity against God.
humans are less than perfect.
Since the fall of Adam, humans are guilty of sins, transgressions, iniquities, errors against God and against one another.
e weak and succumb to vices, like stealing, rage, duplicity, etc. some have other vices: eating too much chocolate, watching jersey shore even though it's stupid.
I disagree with none of this. And none of this makes homosexuality disappear from being one of the sins He condemns. So we need a forgiveness of sins' guilt and a rescue from sin's power through the Lord Jesus.
homosexuality (gay love, not a dude doinking other dudes in a parking lot) "warps" and "twists" humanity as much as eating chocolate does. actually, scratch that, not even that much.
You are ignorant of both the physiological and psychological issues of the matter.
Even more so you are just dull in conscience to accept God's evaluation of the matter.
I cannot follow your philosophy on this. The Bible says "Let no one deceive you with vain words, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; For you were once darkness but are now light in the Lord; walk as childrebn of light..." (Eph. 5:6-8)
In the list of "these things" which Paul says are responsible for God sending His wrath, there is included "fornicator or unclean person or greedy person (who is an idolater).
I understand that fornication stems from greediness and idolatry. Though homosexuality is not specifically named there, it most definitely is one of "these things" if fornication is implicated. And in a parellel passage the apostle specifically mentions "homosexuals" as in danger of not inheriting the kingdom of God -
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray; neither fornicators nor idolaters not adulterers nor effiminate nor homosexuals nor thieves nor the covetous, not drunkards, not revilers, not the rapacious will inherit the kingdom of God.
And these things were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor. 5:9-11)
This passage does not say that homosexuals cannot be saved. It says that they must be transformed and sanctified out of that life before they can inherit the kingdom of God. The same goes for covetous, drunkards, revilers, thieves and the other mentioned lifestyles.
And it is also clear to me that "fornication" means sex outside of marriage. And Marriage is meant by the apostle to be one man with one woman:
"But because of fornication, let each MAN have HIS own wife, and let each WOMAN have HER own husband." (1 Cor. 7:2)
to claim homosexuality is a sin, and to place it in the same bag as stealing, rape and murder is six different flavors of wrong.
You are saying then that God is wrong. You are saying that the word of God is wrong.
I think your conscience is dull and perhaps seared as with a hot iron - insensative.
Or perhaps you are like a man who has been all day in a room full of people eating garlic. The smell of the garlic just is not noticed by you anymore.
But I do not recommend that any sinner FOCUS on his or her sin as opposed to FOCUSING on the Savior Jesus Christ. I recommend that a person look away from their failures and believe in Christ, trusting in Him, turning the heart fully towards Him, and receiveing Him within:
"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit".
The way to victory over sinning is not in focusing attention on the sin. It is by looking away to Jesus Christ. In Him and out from Him is the overcoming power.
" The Bible's teaching is that everything man does is ULTIMATELY the business of God. " the bible also teaches us that it is righteous too obliterate the population of an entire city of the face of the earth simply so that the "chosen" would have place for their cribs. the bible also teaches that god killed job's sons and daughters and who knows how many servants and their families just to have a little bet with satan.
the bible is not really a reliable source when it comes to teaching about god.
You are jumping to another complaint and subject. This is typical of the rebellious. And I think your reasoning is declining.
The Bible is the revelation of God, righteousness, His love and salvation. And concerning arguments into which you are sinking Ecclesiastes says:
" ... the lips of a fool swallow him up. The beginning of the words of his mouth is folly, and the end of his talk is wicked madness." (Ecc. 10:13)
I think you're going downhill further. I think I may just let you descend into your wicked madness, claiming that the bible is not reliable on the subject of God.
31 Oct 11
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillI have made it clear before that it is not the homosexual person that isyour problem is that you think that a god of love only loves you if you conform to a strict model of what a christian is.
I quoted you from the book of Romans. It clearly shows that while all mankind is under condemnation, His love for ALL of mankind motivates Him to provide a salvation to all.
In chapter 5 we read - [b]"But ible is not reliable on the subject of God.
abominable to God; but it is a certain sexual act that is abominable.
It makes no difference if both are heterosexual; the act is just as hated.
31 Oct 11
Originally posted by RJHindsHe loves us as you suggest. It is clear that He loved us and died and rose for all sinners - good sinners and bad sinners, public sinners and private sinners, forgivable sinners and unforgivable sinners.
I have made it clear before that it is not the homosexual person that is
abominable to God; but it is a certain sexual act that is abominable.
It makes no difference if both are heterosexual; the act is just as hated.
His one atoning sacrifice was adaquate for the sins of the whole world of all human history.
As you say it is. God now commands us to believe into Christ that Christ may become our righteousness.
31 Oct 11
Originally posted by jaywillRepentance by the individual is also a part of it all.
He loves us as you suggest. It is clear that He loved us and died and rose for all sinners - good sinners and bad sinners, public sinners and private sinners, forgivable sinners and unforgivable sinners.
His one atoning sacrifice was adaquate for the sins of the whole world of all human history.
As you say it is. God now commands us to believe into Christ that Christ may become our righteousness.
01 Nov 11
I think a lot of so called Christians get on the bandwagon to go blow up the abortion clinic or go bash Gays and this is ludicrous to say the least. I think God hates the sin but God hates all sin and vice in which men fall. I think from a design point is just one argument against homo-sexual relations. No procreation if we were all gay. A circle can't fit in a square. LOL 🙂 that being said I've had gay friends and there cool people and most have Gaydar so if your straight they will not hit on you.
Manny
01 Nov 11
Originally posted by jaywillsummed up, your wall o' text is more or less:your problem is that you think that a god of love only loves you if you conform to a strict model of what a christian is.
I quoted you from the book of Romans. It clearly shows that while all mankind is under condemnation, His love for ALL of mankind motivates Him to provide a salvation to all.
In chapter 5 we read - [b]"But ...[text shortened]... ble is not reliable on the subject of God.
1. the bible is 100% awesome and correct.
2. ignore the non awesome (murderous, gruesome, cruel, etc) stories in the bible or continue to call them awesome but provide nothing to support them.
3. continue to claim the bible's view on how a society should function should be applied to this society after 2000 years, even if our society is completely different than the one 100 years ago let alone 2000 and even if jesus himself changed the entire old testament because the society 2000 years ago could no longer function by rules from 4000 years ago.
it used to be eye for an eye. jesus changed that. even if god himself gave that rule? jesus put forth the possibility of change, of following your conscience and the fact that in the end, all that matters is that if you love god and your fellow man, it doesn't really matter if you eat pork on friday or if you take the lord's name in vain if you stub your toe on something.
we nowadays have homosexuality. and people are born gay. they don't become gay. no dude on this earth that wasn't gay to begin with wakes up one morning and thinks
"maybe it would be fun today to suck a schlong". it isn't a learned habit. you aren't more prone to gayism because of society's influence. it is the same as being born with blue eyes. being gay doesn't stop you from procreating. being gay certainly doesn't stop you from functioning in society.
jesus came to the israelites 2000 years ago and told them they should love their enemies. that was a huge change. he told them they should love non-israelites even if the old testament god tells them to kill all idol-whorshippers. in short, jesus told the people of that time to include in their love and accept other categories of people. will you accept gays into your society?