Originally posted by ZahlanziGod gave the ten commandment. Jesus said it was Moses who gave the
summed up, your wall o' text is more or less:
1. the bible is 100% awesome and correct.
2. ignore the non awesome (murderous, gruesome, cruel, etc) stories in the bible or continue to call them awesome but provide nothing to support them.
3. continue to claim the bible's view on how a society should function should be applied to this society after 2000 ...[text shortened]... love and accept other categories of people. will you accept gays into your society?
other laws, like eye for eye, due to the hardness of their hearts.
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Originally posted by Zahlanziwe nowadays have homosexuality. and people are born gay. they don't become gay
summed up, your wall o' text is more or less:
1. the bible is 100% awesome and correct.
2. ignore the non awesome (murderous, gruesome, cruel, etc) stories in the bible or continue to call them awesome but provide nothing to support them.
3. continue to claim the bible's view on how a society should function should be applied to this society after 2000 love and accept other categories of people. will you accept gays into your society?
predisposition and determination are not the same thing, if we are, as you claim,
predisposed to a particular sexual orientation from birth, that is mutually exclusive as
your comment seems to suggest then how to you account for bi-sexuals or those who
are heterosexual and later change in life or those who are 'reformed', homosexuals.
Do tell.
Also you have provided no substantiating evidence to your claim that human sexuality
is predetermined, therefore on what basis are you claiming that its mutually exclusive,
for if its not mutually exclusive then its a preference. If its a preference then its a
moral issue. If its a moral issue then you have no right to term others haters
simply because they do not accept it.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieso basically, you are indeed saying that there is some dude out there waking up one morning and saying "today i am gonna try another man's penis".
we nowadays have homosexuality. and people are born gay. they don't become gay
predisposition and determination are not the same thing, if we are, as you claim,
predisposed to a particular sexual orientation from birth, that is mutually exclusive as
your comment seems to suggest then how to you account for bi-sexuals or those who
are heteros ...[text shortened]... al issue then you have no right to term others haters
simply because they do not accept it.
homosexuality is simply a willingness to find someone of the same gender sexually attractive. you have it in you, some simply don't acknowledge it so they spend their life next to a person of the opposite gender they don't find "yummy". and it doesn't need to absolutely rule out heterosexuality either.
in a world where reproduction isn't always a driving force in a human's behavior, a world where not all people need to reproduce so humanity doesn't die off, some people are starting to consider other types of life partners. it is a desire to spend one's life with someone compatible, not have a partner with which to swap genetic material with the purpose of having a child.
homosexuality might be evolution's way of telling humanity to slow down with the making babies. i personally don't care why homosexuality exists. i just know that some people invented something that i don't enjoy and never will but something that doesn't hurt anyone. and i must recognize their right to enjoy that something.
Originally posted by Zahlanziplease answer the question, if you cannot simply state so.
so basically, you are indeed saying that there is some dude out there waking up one morning and saying "today i am gonna try another man's penis".
homosexuality is simply a willingness to find someone of the same gender sexually attractive. you have it in you, some simply don't acknowledge it so they spend their life next to a person of the opposite g ...[text shortened]... t doesn't hurt anyone. and i must recognize their right to enjoy that something.
Originally posted by robbie carrobiei did answer your post. there was no question in it but i tried to address some of your "facts".
please answer the question, if you cannot simply state so.
got another issue you raised: me coining haters people who don't accept homosexuality.
help me out then. what do you call people that dismiss a group of people because of a lifestyle that has no bearing on anyone but the people who chose it? a general term if you please. and from that, please add terms for people who do some or all of the following: refuse contact with said group, deny them opportunities that "normal" people have (in this case access to heaven), forbid them from getting certain jobs, verbally abuse them, physically abuse them, practice separation, etc.
what would you call someone who claims "Steve The Very Gay" (The Very Gay is his last name), who is a doctor and saved thousands of people in his lifetime and believes in jesus with all his heart and is in fact a very good christian, will go to hell simply because he was so very gay with Frank, a very good christian who believed in jesus with all his heart and was a fireman who saved thousands of people in his lifetime? What would you call people who will tell the children Steve and Frank adopted that their fathers will go to hell even if they are outstanding members of society?
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Originally posted by ZahlanziNo you have no answered the question nor did i expect you to because it cannot be
i did answer your post. there was no question in it but i tried to address some of your "facts".
got another issue you raised: me coining haters people who don't accept homosexuality.
help me out then. what do you call people that dismiss a group of people because of a lifestyle that has no bearing on anyone but the people who chose it? a general te opted that their fathers will go to hell even if they are outstanding members of society?
answered in purely materialistic terms. The folly of those who project such a
simplistic point of view of human sexuality is self evident from their failure to
explain any of those anomalies and to state that a sexuality is mutually exclusive
without stating why is merely proffering an assumption, which, in the all inclusive,
moral morass in which we find ourselves, we are simply meant to accept without
question. If anyone does dare to question its legitimacy, they are a hater.
help me out then. what do you call people that dismiss a group of people because of
a lifestyle that has no bearing on anyone but the people who chose it?
in what way are they being dismissed?
If Steve the very gay wishes to stick his willy where he likes of what concern is it of
anyone, that is not to say however, that we agree with the legitimacy of where he
prefers to stick his willy nor of the morality of his doing so. This is quite different
from Steve the very gay himself, who may indeed be a paragon of virtue
otherwise. Thus you are making the act synonymous with the person, when in fact,
they are not one and the same, for Steve the very gay may indeed make an
excellent doctor, but a very poor wife.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobie1: i still don't get what the question was that i didn't answered
No you have no answered the question nor did i expect you to because it cannot be
answered in purely materialistic terms. The folly of those who project such a
simplistic point of view of human sexuality is self evident from their failure to
explain any of those anomalies and to state that a sexuality is mutually exclusive
without stating wh ...[text shortened]... nd the same, for Steve the very gay may indeed make an
excellent doctor, but a very poor wife.
2: i haven't claimed homosexuality is mutually exclusive with heterosexuality. it isn't. it is a trait one has. one can find both genders equally attractive.(we called them bisexuals)
3" the legitimacy of where he
prefers to stick his willy nor of the morality of his doing so"
Wha? the legitimacy? is there a list of approved places one may stick his schlong? would god think metal shorts would be appropriate? how about a list of places one may stick his arm? or nose? morality is a human construct. it isn't always synonim with good.
4. what makes a good wife? is it bewbs? Frank the fireman doesn't need bewbs. Is it vagina? Frank doesn't need that either, because he is gay. Would caring, understanding, being there for her spouse, helping raise the children be the mark of a good wife? Because Steve is not only a good doctor but a wonderful parent as well. And the care and love Steve has for his patients is increased tenfold for Frank the fireman and their adopted children Sinija(steve was a volunteer doctor in the war in Serbia and he adopted a little serbian orphan) and Lily.
so basically, a wife is a good wife if she is caring, loving and helps raise a family's children (if there are any). having bewbs and vagina only makes a wife a good lover for a hetero husband. not a good wife.
Originally posted by Zahlanziok, Zhalanzi, its getting ridiculous. May i also raise the point that your are making the
1: i still don't get what the question was that i didn't answered
2: i haven't claimed homosexuality is mutually exclusive with heterosexuality. it isn't. it is a trait one has. one can find both genders equally attractive.(we called them bisexuals)
3" the legitimacy of where he
prefers to stick his willy nor of the morality of his doing so"
Wha? the ...[text shortened]... bewbs and vagina only makes a wife a good lover for a hetero husband. not a good wife.
sexual act synonymous with love, this appears to me to be folly, for in many instances
this is not the case, people engage in sex all the time without feeling any affinity for
their partner. Do you think a prostitute actually feels anything for the person she
conducts business with? Hardly, therefore citing a sexual act as evidence of love I dont
think can stand.
I'll just contribute a few comments to this discussion, since I have the unique position of being an insider on this subject.
First, I do not believe it is possible to change sexual orientation. There are certainly many 'ex-gays' but whether they have actually experienced a re-orientation or whether they have simply decided to change their sexual identity is unclear. Some gay men may choose to live a heterosexual lifestyle but I am very skeptical of claims that their sexual attraction has changed. For my part, it is impossible. I once tried to change, very hard. I went to Mass, prayed frequently during the day, confessed my sins weekly. Whether you believe in the spiritual efficacy of these devotions is irrelevant. The point is I tried with all effort to change myself for many years. It was not successful.
Second, Robbie is suggesting that homosexuality is simply a matter of 'where one sticks one's willy'. I personally find this offensive. My sexuality is not an anal fetish. I am attracted to men physically and [/i]emotionally[/i]. I have never desired anonymous encounters with men in public toilets. There are some gays who are like that. It only shows that the LGBT community is not homogenous but eludes stereotypes. I suspect though that most gays, whether promiscuous or not, still want a lasting intimate romantic relationship.
Originally posted by Conrau KHeck your gay?
I'll just contribute a few comments to this discussion, since I have the unique position of being an insider on this subject.
First, I do not believe it is possible to change sexual orientation. There are certainly many 'ex-gays' but whether they have actually experienced a re-orientation or whether they have simply decided to change their sexual [i]ide ...[text shortened]... ost gays, whether promiscuous or not, still want a lasting intimate romantic relationship.
Unreal. I mean thats good.
Good that you can tell us, it really sheds some light on your other posting.
Not to mention the respect you get from me for telling the forum that!
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Originally posted by Conrau KSecond, Robbie is suggesting that homosexuality is simply a matter of 'where one
I'll just contribute a few comments to this discussion, since I have the unique position of being an insider on this subject.
First, I do not believe it is possible to change sexual orientation. There are certainly many 'ex-gays' but whether they have actually experienced a re-orientation or whether they have simply decided to change their sexual de ost gays, whether promiscuous or not, still want a lasting intimate romantic relationship.
sticks one's willy'
If you actually read the text you will see that i did state that human sexuality was not
simplistic, quite the opposite, that me and Zhalanzi were exchanging some ribaldry
should also be self evident. Did i not also state that love need not be synonymous
with a sexual act? well, then.
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Originally posted by ZahlanziCOMMANDMENT SOURCE
so moses lied? where does it say that?
BOOK ONE: THE BOOK OF KNOWLEDGE
Fundamentals of Torah:
1To know there is a GodEx. 20:2
2Not to entertain thoughts of other gods besides HimEx. 20:3
3To know that He is oneDeut. 6:4
4To love HimDeut. 6:5
5To fear HimDeut. 10:20
6To sanctify His NameLev. 22:32
7Not to profane His NameLev. 22:32
8Not to destroy objects associated with His NameDeut. 12:4
9To listen to the prophet speaking in His NameDeut. 18:15
10Not to test the prophet undulyDeut. 6:16
Laws of Character
11To emulate His waysDeut. 28:9
12To cleave to those who know HimDeut. 10:20
13To love JewsLev. 19:18
14To love convertsDeut. 10:19
15Not to hate fellow JewsLev. 19:17
16To reproveLev. 19:17
17Not to embarrass othersLev. 19:17
18Not to oppress the weakEx. 21:22
19Not to speak derogatorily of othersLev. 19:16
20Not to take revengeLev. 19:18
21Not to bear a grudgeLev. 19:18
Laws of Torah Study
22To learn TorahDeut. 6:7
23To honor those who teach and know TorahLev. 19:32
Laws of Idolatry and Paganism
24Not to inquire into idolatryLev. 19:4
25Not to follow the whims of your heart or what your eyes seeNum. 15:39
26Not to blasphemeEx. 22:27
27Not to worship idols in the manner they are worshipedEx. 20:5
28Not to worship idols in the four ways we worship GodEx. 20:5
29Not to make an idol for yourselfEx. 20:4
30Not to make an idol for othersLev. 19:4
31Not to make human forms even for decorative purposesEx. 20:20
32Not to turn a city to idolatryEx. 23:13
33To burn a city that has turned to idol worshipDeut. 13:17
34Not to rebuild it as a cityDeut. 13:17
35Not to derive benefit from itDeut. 13:18
36Not to missionize an individual to idol worshipDeut. 13:12
37Not to love the missionaryDeut. 13:9
38Not to cease hating the missionaryDeut. 13:9
39Not to save the missionaryDeut. 13:9
40Not to say anything in his defenseDeut. 13:9
41Not to refrain from incriminating himDeut. 13:9
42Not to prophesize in the name of idolatryDeut. 13:14
43Not to listen to a false prophetDeut. 13:4
44Not to prophesize falsely in the name of GodDeut. 18:20
45Not to be afraid of killing the false prophetDeut. 18:22
46Not to swear in the name of an idolEx. 23:13
47Not to perform ov (medium)Lev. 19:31
48Not to perform yidoni (magical seer)Lev. 19:31
49Not to pass your children through the fire to MolechLev. 18:21
50Not to erect a column in a public place of worshipDeut. 16:22
51Not to bow down on smooth stoneLev. 26:1
52Not to plant a tree in the Temple courtyardDeut. 16:21
53To destroy idols and their accessoriesDeut. 12:2
54Not to derive benefit from idols and their accessoriesDeut. 7:26
55Not to derive benefit from ornaments of idolsDeut. 7:25
56Not to make a covenant with idolatersDeut. 7:2
57Not to show favor to themDeut. 7:2
58Not to let them dwell in our landEx. 23:33
59Not to imitate them in customs and clothingLev. 20:23
60Not to be superstitiousLev. 19:26
61Not to go into a trance to foresee events, etc.Deut. 18:10
62Not to engage in astrologyLev. 19:26
63Not to mutter incantationsDeut. 18:11
64Not to attempt to contact the deadDeut. 18:11
65Not to consult the ovDeut. 18:11
66Not to consult the yidoniDeut. 18:11
67Not to perform acts of magicDeut. 18:10
68Men must not shave the hair off the sides of their headLev. 19:27
69Men must not shave their beards with a razorLev. 19:27
70Men must not wear women's clothingDeut. 22:5
71Women must not wear men's clothingDeut. 22:5
72Not to tattoo the skinLev. 19:28
73Not to tear the skin in mourningDeut. 14:1
74Not to make a bald spot in mourningDeut. 14:1
Laws of Repentance
75To repent and confess wrongdoingsNum. 5:7
BOOK TWO: THE BOOK OF LOVE OF GOD
Laws of Reading the Shema
76To say the Shema twice dailyDeut. 6:7
Laws of Prayer and Kohanic Blessings
77To serve the Almighty with prayer dailyEx. 23:25
78The Kohanim must bless the Jewish nation dailyNum. 6:23
Laws of Tefillin, Mezuza and Sefer Torah
79To wear tefillin on the headDeut. 6:8
80To bind tefillin on the armDeut. 6:8
81To put a mezuzah on each door postDeut. 6:9
82Each male must write a Sefer TorahDeut. 31:19
83The king must have a separate Sefer Torah for himselfDeut. 17:18
Laws of Tzitzit
84To have tzitzit on four-cornered garmentsNum. 15:38
Laws of Blessings
85To bless the Almighty after eatingDeut. 8:10
Laws of Circumcision
86To circumcise all males on the eighth day after their birthLev. 12:3
BOOK THREE: THE BOOK OF SEASONS
Laws of the Sabbath
87To rest on the seventh dayEx. 23:12
88Not to do prohibited labor on the seventh dayEx. 20:10
89The court must not inflict punishment on ShabbatEx. 35:3
90Not to walk outside the city boundary on ShabbatEx. 16:29
91To sanctify the day with Kiddush and HavdallahEx. 20:8
Laws of Eruvin (Rabbinical)
Laws of Yom Kippur Rest
92To rest from prohibited laborLev. 23:32
93Not to do prohibited labor on Yom KippurLev. 23:32
94To afflict yourself on Yom KippurLev. 16:29
95Not to eat or drink on Yom KippurLev. 23:29
Laws of Festival Rest
96To rest on the first day of PassoverLev. 23:7
97Not to do prohibited labor on the first day of PassoverLev. 23:8
98To rest on the seventh day of PassoverLev. 23:8
99Not to do prohibited labor on the seventh day of PassoverLev. 23:8
100To rest on ShavuotLev. 23:21
there are 613.
I would say that Robbie is correct. In my estimation, there are relatively few people that don't separate at least to some degree... the self-sacrificing, heartfelt, kinship, oneness, wholesome love one feels for their loved one, and the act of fornication; sodomy, standard, or otherwise. And this goes especially for the case of sodomy because it is a completely one-sided act as far as orgasm goes.
And with that... and I can't believe I even went there.... I'm done with this thread.
I'll admit, I was so disgusted by this very subject I requested not once, but twice, that the moderators move this thread elsewhere. Evidently they feel that sodomy and spirituality are synonymous on some level. I respect their decision but I disagree wholeheartedly.
Good day.
Originally posted by sumydid...
I would say that Robbie is correct. In my estimation, there are relatively few people that don't separate at least to some degree... the self-sacrificing, heartfelt, kinship, oneness, wholesome love one feels for their loved one, and the act of fornication; sodomy, standard, or otherwise. And this goes especially for the case of sodomy because it is ...[text shortened]... onymous on some level. I respect their decision but I disagree wholeheartedly.
Good day.