Originally posted by ThinkOfOne Do you really think that you've completely clarified your question? Your question was ambiguous because the terminology was not clearly defined. Try rephrasing the question so that it is clear.
We've already agreed that the Bible is interpreted differently by different people. Do you really think that cutting and pasting verses does anything to clarify what YOUR interpretation is?
What exactly isn't clear? Perhaps you would like to give a definition of what salvation means. I thought I did. I really don't understand where you're coming from since I haven't heard you say what you believe yet.
Originally posted by EcstremeVenom society changes and the bible doesnt. i think that the morality in the bible doesnt apply to today. i think people should let go of those morals and make their own, i tried to explain this to my mom but she got pissed. for example, i dont believe that gays are going to hell although i dont believe in hell, if there was a hell, i dont think god would send gays to hell. opinions?
Are you implying that gays born in the time of the New Testament should go to hell? If not, then you should be saying you simply do not agree with the morality of the Bible, rather than implying that morality itself changes with time. If gays do not go to hell then the Bibles morality was just as inappropriate / wrong when written as it is now.
Or maybe we are just reading it wrong with respect to verses about gays. But then one should wonder about the true reason for God inserting such verses that he must have known would be misinterpreted by the vast majority of readers.
Originally posted by josephw What exactly isn't clear? Perhaps you would like to give a definition of what salvation means. I thought I did. I really don't understand where you're coming from since I haven't heard you say what you believe yet.
I'm still trying to figure out what your original question was about. If you wanted to know what I believe about salvation, why didn't you just ask in the first place instead of asking, "Is salvation a free gift?", which is dependent on your interpretion of the terms.
Originally posted by josephw I couldn't begin to guess about numbers, but I think it would be safe to say there are few true believers, many professing, alot of charlatans.
My experience is that a lot of people profess to having beliefs that they are really more or less agnostic about. For example, many people in Africa, are quite comfortable apparently with holding both Christian beliefs and traditional beliefs even when the two contradict each other and even when both contradict what they learn in school.
Also, when it comes to specifics, many Christians clearly believe that there is a God, but leave the details up to the priest to work out. In other words, if the priest changes his mind, or a new priest comes along, the Christian will say he believes whatever the priest says is true.
Originally posted by pawnhandler Envision a world in which everyone makes their own morals. Now I don't agree with a lot of what's passed off as Biblical teaching by people who ignore other things written in the same book. But a whole world full of people like my mother and uncle who think that however they want to screw people over for pleasure is OK because they make their own moral ...[text shortened]... al? No way. Ditto for being divorced, any particular religion, no particular religion, etc.
its really not hard, since every world does make its own morals. are you telling me that god wrote the entire bible including the parts that are freaking horror stories and genocides that would make hitler proud? and if the bible was written by and for people several thousands years ago, wouldnt it be reasonable to make our own set of morals now? like we did when the bible was created? seems pretty stupid to be living by the moral standards of a jewish shepherd
Originally posted by josephw What exactly isn't clear? Perhaps you would like to give a definition of what salvation means. I thought I did. I really don't understand where you're coming from since I haven't heard you say what you believe yet.
Be careful Joseph , you are asking ToO direct questions that may challenge him , so be prepared for a long haul on this one. You see when it comes to some verses in the Bible he will take them very literally indeed if it supports his belief system , but if it doesn't he will start this kind of evasive talk and run you round in circles.
You and I both know that the Bible teaches that salvation is a free gift imparted by the Holy Spirit upon anyone who truely believes. ToO cannot allow this to be true because he's still into salvation by works and seems to detest the idea that someone might receive salvation through God's good pleasure.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne I guess we could try to come to a agreement on what salvation is, but I was really simply looking to understand what you meant by your question. Just elaborate on what you were asking.
Some questions that come immediately to mind:
Saved from what?
Lost from where?
You claim to be a follower of Jesus (I think?) and yet you don't even know the basics of what he was trying to save us from? Amazing!
Saved for the consequences of sin! I thought it was obvious.
Sin actually means "separation" , so to be separated from God is it's own punishment (work it out) . To be saved is to be re united in fellowship with God.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne I'm still trying to figure out what your original question was about. If you wanted to know what I believe about salvation, why didn't you just ask in the first place instead of asking, "Is salvation a free gift?", which is dependent on your interpretion of the terms.
Just let me know what you really want to know.
I think the question is pretty darn clear and you know it is. It's probably because the question itself puts you on the spot that makes it a problem for you. Do you dare to challenge yourself and REALLY think why you are hesistant to answer?
If you say yes , then you have countered your own position , if you say no then you are implying that salvation can be earned in some way which then implies that somehow a man's holiness can reach up to God's holiness and justify him before God (which runs counter to a whole gamut of NT verses).
The awful truth is that there is nothing that you can do yourself to bridge the gap between yourself and God because his holiness is like a purifying fire (biblical theology) and man's righteousness is "as rags" to him.
But what if God was to give us some of his own holiness and build a bridge to us instead? Can you see how he did that in Jesus? Now that's a free gift if ever there was one!
Originally posted by knightmeister You claim to be a follower of Jesus (I think?) and yet you don't even know the basics of what he was trying to save us from? Amazing!
Saved for the consequences of sin! I thought it was obvious.
Sin actually means "separation" , so to be separated from God is it's own punishment (work it out) . To be saved is to be re united in fellowship with God.
I was asking Josephw about HIS interpretation since we agreed that different people interpret the Bible differently.
Like usual you take things out of context and then draw illogical conclusions. Remember: Read, Think, Post. I wish there was a way to impress on you that the middle step is required. Why you think it's optional, I'll never understand.
I'd think you'd eventually tire of being the fool.
Originally posted by knightmeister I think the question is pretty darn clear and you know it is. It's probably because the question itself puts you on the spot that makes it a problem for you. Do you dare to challenge yourself and REALLY think why you are hesistant to answer?
If you say yes , then you have countered your own position , if you say no then you are implying that salvat ...[text shortened]... ead? Can you see how he did that in Jesus? Now that's a free gift if ever there was one!
Once again, please be quiet while the adults are talking.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne I was asking Josephw about HIS interpretation since we agreed that different people interpret the Bible differently.
Like usual you take things out of context and then draw illogical conclusions. Remember: Read, Think, Post. I wish there was a way to impress on you that the middle step is required. Why you think it's optional, I'll never understand.
I'd think you'd eventually tire of being the fool.
However , you look at OT and NT theology there are few if any different interpretations one can reach on the subject of sin and salvation. Judaism is built on the idea that God is utterly holy and man is separated from God because of sin. Salvation is seen as a purifying and justification before God. Why do you think the high priest was always sacrificing lambs to God and asking God to forgive his people their unrighteousness?
The default starting point of Judaism is man is not right with God and cannot approach his holiness. Man is in trouble. Judaism searches for the new covenant with God. This is what makes Jesus's statements on the shedding of his blood and remission of sin (last supper) so significant to a Jew (which Jesus was).
Now any orthodox scholar of Judaism will tell you roughly the same thing and an intelligent read of the Bible will tell you this also. There arent loads of interpretations out there on this. It's not rocket science. You only complicate to obscure.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne Once again, please be quiet while the adults are talking.
Deflection. Do you have enough self knowledge to realise that you are presently being told what the real truth of the OT/NT is and you just don't want to hear it?
Originally posted by knightmeister However , you look at OT and NT theology there are few if any different interpretations one can reach on the subject of sin and salvation. Judaism is built on the idea that God is utterly holy and man is separated from God because of sin. Salvation is seen as a purifying and justification before God. Why do you think the high priest was always sacrifi ...[text shortened]... f interpretations out there on this. It's not rocket science. You only complicate to obscure.
It's rare to find someone who so consistently misses the point of a conversation.
This isn't even your conversation. Why don't you let Josephw speak for himself?
If you feel you must comment, at least be mature enough to read and comprehend before you do so.
the bible is written in stone
25 Mar '08 11:57
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