29 Jul 07
Originally posted by whodeySome Christians have and have come to a Creedal position. Some Christians have and have come
Throw out the Creed if you like and simply study the same scriptures those that made the Creed had to work with.
to a non-Creedal position. This was all I intended to say.
Nemesio
29 Jul 07
Originally posted by whodeyI was just looking for a simple yes or no, and I will not pursue it. I was just wondering if he were
It was not my intent to adress this issue in this thread. If you would like to adress it, however, please feel free to start another. You know, no one like to be hijacked. 😉
one of those non-Creedal Christians (because his post sounded that way).
Nemesio
29 Jul 07
Originally posted by NemesioIt is a question I struggle with although I lean toward the answer of yes based upon what I know about scripture.
I was just looking for a simple yes or no, and I will not pursue it. I was just wondering if he were
one of those non-Creedal Christians (because his post sounded that way).
Nemesio
Now back to the topic at hand. Is Christ divine?
29 Jul 07
2 edits
Originally posted by whodey
It is a question I struggle with although I lean toward the answer of yes based upon what I know about scripture.
Um. The question wasn't directed at you, but okay. Thanks. Like I said, I won't pursue it irrespective
of how or whether he answers.
Now back to the topic at hand. Is Christ divine?
Now back to our regularly scheduled program.
Nemesio
29 Jul 07
2 edits
Yes Jesus Christ is divine.
Yes Jesus Christ is man - 100% human man.
Yes Jesus Christ is God - 100% the true God.
He is the mingling of divinity and humanity.
He is the God-man.
There is usually no problem with finding self proclamations that Jesus was a man. But what about self proclamations from Jesus saying He was God. Yes, Jesus claimed to be the God of the Old Testament:
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I desired to gather our children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!" (Matt. 23:37)
'It was always God Himself who cared for Jerusalem, as a bird flutters over her young (Isaiah 31:5; Deut. 32:11-12). Hence, when the Lord Jesus said, "I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings," He indicated that He was God Himself. ' [Footnote 37(1), Matt.23:37, Recovery Version]
29 Jul 07
2 edits
ahosney the Muslim writes:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If Jesus is divine, why did he call the father the only true GOD. He is excluding himself from divin equation.
Don't you agree?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It is true that Jesus said the Father was the only true God.
But the eternal purpose of God is not simply to lead men to an objective knowledge of a God far away, even if that God is the only true God. The eternal purpose of God is to dispense God into man. This true God's plan is to distribute and dispense His divine life into man's being.
The divine Source of the Father has a divine Course of the Son. And the divine Course of the Son has a divine flowing of the Holy Spirit. So that the Father - Son - Holy Spirit is about dispensing His life into man to be united and one with man.
Now look at the quotation again:
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Him whom You have sent, Jesus Christ." (John 17:3)
" Eternal life is the divine life with a special function, that is, to know God and Christ (cf. Matt. 11:27). God and Christ are divine. To know the divine person, we need the divine life, Since the believers are born of the divine life, they know God and Christ (Heb.8:11; Phil. 3:10)"
The one true God and the God-man Son Whom He has sent are the channel through which God dispenses eternal life into man through the Holy Spirit that man might actually LIVE God and God might LIVE in man.
Islam only cares that man would have an objective knowledge of God and obey God. The Gospel of Christ is concerned with God imparting Himself into man as eternal life through the channel of the Father - Son - Holy Spirit divine Triune Person.
29 Jul 07
2 edits
Originally posted by whodeyIt is interesting. And the echoing verse of the Apostle John in his First Epistle's closing reinforces that Christ is divine. To those who have been begotten of God and received the divine life of God into their spirit, John writes:
John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
So eternal life requires knowing the Father and the Son? Interesting.
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we might know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20)
What does the word "this" refer to?
1.) The Son of God Who has come is "This".
2.) Him Who is true is "This".
3.) The knowing of Him Who is true is "This".
4.) His Son Jesus Christ is "This".
5.) The being IN Him who is true and being in His Son is "This".
"This is the true God and eternal life. Little children, guard yourselves from idols."
Anything which takes the place of, or usurps the importance of, or replaces the enjoyment of being in the true God who is eternal life - is an idol. Nothing and no matter in human life should take the place of being in the true God and in His Son Jesus Christ as eternal life.
29 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeyThe concept of the Trinity in no way denies that there is only one God.
The concept of the Trinity in no way denies that there is only one God. In fact, Christ said that if you have seen me you have seen the Father and that they were One even though Christ talked about the Father at times as if they were seperate entities.
Edit: Has any of the other prophet made such a claim as Christ? For example, did Moses say that you mus ...[text shortened]... ife? Did Isaiah? How about Jeremiah? No, I don't recall such a claim from any other prophet.
This scriptures is not saying that there is only one GOD. It says that this only one GOD is the father. So it has nothing to do whith what you say. The concept of the trinity is not in the Bible. You have to go back to Creedal Christianity as Nemesio said to make its definition, and this will take you away from the bible. The Church is the one who teaches trinity not the Bible.
In fact, Christ said that if you have seen me you have seen the Father
Jesus also said the no one can see the father.
And GOD also said, no one can see and live.
The this tell me that Jesus never ment actual vision.
So when you refere back to the original greek you will see that the word used here could also mean know.
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3708&Version=kjv
So this scripture could be read, Who know me will know the Father.
And as he defined the father to be the only true GOD.
Then it means who know me will know the GOD
And that is simply the message of any prophet.
The prophet is the way for his people to know GOD
and those who know the prophet will know the GOD who sent him.
All the prophets said that. Prophet Mohammed said that, but of course you don't know him. That is why you don't know GOD.
and that they were One
Where did he say that. Jesus is not the Father. They are different. All Christian Churches believe so If I'm mistaken. So how could they be one.
If you go back to this verse you will find out that you just took it our from its context.
even though Christ talked about the Father at times as if they were seperate entities.
Christ always talks about the father as two separate entities. All the time.
Edit: Has any of the other prophet made such a claim as Christ? For example, did Moses say that you must know me to inherit eternal life? Did Isaiah? How about Jeremiah? No, I don't recall such a claim from any other prophet.
I don't know if they did say that in the Bible.
But what I know for sure, if any one didn't know his prophet, believe in him, and follow him, he will not gain the eternal life.
But all of these stuf are concolusions. Jesus defined his GOD as the Father. All what you say will not make any sense. Jesus solved the problem.
29 Jul 07
Originally posted by whodeyIsaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder; and his name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, the Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace"
Speaking of prophets, how about Isaiah?
Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder; and his name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, the Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace"
How can God be born?
You see, you do not only have a variety of NT authors who are "fa ...[text shortened]... "fallible" authors does it take to agree on a truth that turns it into a great likelyhood?
My friend you pick and choose: This is not about Jesus and can't be.
1- and the government will be upon his shoulder = Jesus never had the government on his shouders. Actually he refused it when Jews offered it to him.
2- will be called Wonderful, Counselor: Jesus never called Wonderful , or Counselor. Who did call him that. Jesus was always called Jesus. And when the Angel came to marry , he said that your son will be called Jesus. So how can you say it matches him.
3- the Everlasting Father: Again , Father here could never mean the Father Jesus was taking about. Because Jesus is not the Father , and it will not match. Besides GOD is the one who is speaking here.
4- The Prince of Peace: Jesus said:
(king James Version)(Luke)(Lk-12-51)(Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division🙂
What ever the reason, or your explaination of this scripture, it will make the prophcy not matching to Jesus.
---------------
Four parts of this statment doesn't match Jesus, although you believe that it is talking about him, and use it to prove his divinity, while he said by himself that he is not the GOD.
----------------
How can God be born?
You tell me. It doesn't make any sense.
----------------
You see, you do not only have a variety of NT authors who are "fallible" but inspired, but you also have OT writers who refer to him as well. So how many "fallible" authors does it take to agree on a truth that turns it into a great likelyhood?
Jewsh were expecting a man , the Messiah, not GOD. So you will not find any thing that will support Jesus divinity in the OT. It will be always a pick and choose trials.
29 Jul 07
Originally posted by jaywillIt is true that Jesus said the Father was the only true God.
ahosney the Muslim writes:
[b]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If Jesus is divine, why did he call the father the only true GOD. He is excluding himself from divin equation.
Don't you agree?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It is true that Jesus said the Father was the only true God.
But the eternal purpose of God is not simp ...[text shortened]... rnal life[/b] through the channel of the Father - Son - Holy Spirit divine Triune Person.[/b]
It is good that you agree in that.
But the eternal purpose of God is not simply to lead men to an objective knowledge of a God far away, even if that God is the only true God. The eternal purpose of God is to dispense God into man. This true God's plan is to distribute and dispense His divine life into man's being.
The divine Source of the Father has a divine Course of the Son. And the divine Course of the Son has a divine flowing of the Holy Spirit. So that the Father - Son - Holy Spirit is about dispensing His life into man to be united and one with man.
If the father is the only true GOD , and the son is divine, then your statement simply implyes that you have two GOSs.
Lets see what you say:
1- Jesus declare the father as the only true GOD.
2- And Jesus is not the father, because Jesus said the father is another person, John 5:32-37.
3- And you claim that the son , Jesus, is divine.
So the result that you have two GODs.
I think you better review your statement.
ahosney the Muslim writes
I don't know what being a Muslim has to do with this. Does being a Muslim makes me a second class person. Or does it make me unqualified to talk to you. I see it doesn't make any sense.
29 Jul 07
Originally posted by ahosyneyWhat I am after is why Jesus is "special". For example, the verse in question plainly says that one must believe in both the Father and the Son in order to have eternal life. Why? Also, Isaiah says that God could be born. How? You still did not adress this issue. Also, Christ is the Messiah. Do you believe this? In fact, the crusified Christ for blasphemy because they accused him of saying that he was the Son of God. So if the Jews did not see him as making himself equal with the Father by making himself the Son of God, why did they crusify him for blashpemy?
[b]The concept of the Trinity in no way denies that there is only one God.
This scriptures is not saying that there is only one GOD. It says that this only one GOD is the father. So it has nothing to do whith what you say. The concept of the trinity is not in the Bible. You have to go back to Creedal Christianity as Nemesio said to make its definitio ...[text shortened]... and this will take you away from the bible. The Church is the one who teaches trinity not the Bible.
I would like to throw in one more verse as food for thought. John 8:58 says that Jesus was quoted as saying, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am."
What other prophet can make this claim as well as the necissity for accepting him for having eternal life? Notice also that they then took up stones to stone him but he hid himself shortly after saying this. It is apparent to me what he is saying as it was to the Jews who heard him say it. The only question is why others do not understand what he is saying.
29 Jul 07
2 edits
Originally posted by ahosyneyChrist said that he was the reflection of the Father. In fact, when his disciples asked him to show them the Father Jesus said that if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. Jesus said that he did NOTHING on his own except what was the will of the Father. So in this respect we have the Father in the form of Jesus talking to us. Who else can make this claim?
If the father is the only true GOD , and the son is divine, then your statement simply implyes that you have two GOSs.
Lets see what you say:
1- Jesus declare the father as the only true GOD.
2- And Jesus is not the father, because Jesus said the father is another person, John 5:32-37.
3- And you claim that the son , Jesus, is divine.
So the result that you have two GODs.
I think you better review your statement.
Again, those who believe in the concept of the Trinity in no way think there are more than one God. The issue is how complex God is in relation to our concept of him. If there be a God I think our views of him are much more simplistic than the actual truth. Would you not agree? Also, the Bible says we were made in the image of God. Are we not a triune being as well? Do we not also talk to ourselves? Are you more than your arm or leg or your intellect? Do not these elements make up the whole sum of who you are?
29 Jul 07
Originally posted by whodeyI wounder if you really read what I say. Did you read any thing of what I said?
What I am after is why Jesus is "special". For example, the verse in question plainly says that one must believe in both the Father and the Son in order to have eternal life. Why? Also, Isaiah says that God could be born. How? You still did not adress this issue. Also, Christ is the Messiah. Do you believe this? In fact, the crusified Christ for blasp ...[text shortened]... who heard him say it. The only question is why others do not understand what he is saying.
Jesus is a special because he is a prophet. All prophets are special.
Actually I don't understant what are trying to do:
1- Jesus never claimed to be GOD.
2- Jesus said in many places that he is a man and prophet.
3- Jesus said that the only true GOD is the Father.
4- Jesus ask people to worship the Father. And called him his own GOD.
5- And he said he is not the father.
6- And you believe that there is only one GOD.
this all equal to
Jesus is not GOD, and he don't even have any divin nature , and he is just a man and a prophet, supported from GOD to give people some message.
What are you searching for? What are you trying to do after that?
Please, what point from 1 to 6 you don't agree with, and don't ignore it as usual.
For example, the verse in question plainly says that one must believe in both the Father and the Son in order to have eternal life.
If jesus is a prophet and you believe in the father , and don't believe in Jesus who was sent by GOD, then you are rejecting GOD as well. That is why you need to believe in Jesus as a prophet.
I don't know what is your problem in that?
Also, Isaiah says that God could be born. How?
I answered this, but as usual you ignored what I said. Those qoutes from Isaiah doesn't match Jesus at all. They they can't be quetioned here. They are irrelevent.
You still did not adress this issue
I will address this issue if it has any thing to do with our discussion. But as the verses in Isaia 9:6 are not talking about Jesus, why do you want me to address them?
Also, Christ is the Messiah. Do you believe this?
Lets assume that I believe Jesus is the Messiah. What does this prove?
The Messiah is a man, and prophet sent from GOD.
So if you believe that Jesus is the Messiah, then you must believe that he is a man and a prophet.
In fact, the crusified Christ for blasphemy because they accused him of saying that he was the Son of God. So if the Jews did not see him as making himself equal with the Father by making himself the Son of God, why did they crusify him for blashpemy?
That is totally not true. That is the false accusation from Jewsh, to convense romans to crusify him. But the true reason is also found in the Bible. Read:
(king James Version)(John)
(Jn-11-47)(Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.)
(Jn-11-48)(If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.)
(Jn-43-49)(And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,)
(Jn-43-50)(Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.)
So it a pure political reason. The were afraid about their position with Roman. And it has nothing to do with sayin son of GOD.
Actually Jesus told them that I'm the son of GOD the same way your are.
And also what prove my point is that you will find no law in the OT that say that whoever claim to be son of GOD , should be killed. There is no such a thing. So if they said they killed him for that, it is false accusation.
-------------
I would like to throw in one more verse as food for thought. John 8:58 says that Jesus was quoted as saying, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am."
What in this verse prove his divinity. Satan himself is before Ibraham. And all the Angles are before Abraham.
So what??
Actually Jewsh thought that he is deivl so they tried to stone him. Becuase they tought in the law that they should stone devils. ( I don't remember the qoute now, but it exist)
If you are talking about the phrase "I AM" , so please search for something else.
------------------------------
As you can see, all what you are trying to make concolusions while the case is close from the mouth of Jesus Christ himself.
29 Jul 07
Originally posted by whodeyChrist said that he was the reflection of the Father.
Christ said that he was the reflection of the Father. In fact, when his disciples asked him to show them the Father Jesus said that if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. Jesus said that he did NOTHING on his own except what was the will of the Father. So in this respect we have the Father in the form of Jesus talking to us. Who else can make this ...[text shortened]... your arm or leg or your intellect? Do not these elements make up the whole sum of who you are?
Every prophet is a reflection of GOD view. We knew GOD through prophets. Without prophets we would not have any knowldge about GOD.
In fact, when his disciples asked him to show them the Father Jesus said that if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.
I answered that before, please go read it back.
Jesus said that he did NOTHING on his own except what was the will of the Father.
I wounder how can you talk about divinity of Jesus after saying that. It doesn't make any sense.
So in this respect we have the Father in the form of Jesus talking to us. Who else can make this claim?
All the prophets made this claim. Every single prophet go what GOD wants him to do.
Prophet Mohammed made that claim, although we don't consider him GOD.
Again, those who believe in the concept of the Trinity in no way think there are more than one God.
I know that, but that is what it claim. But I'm not taking about Trinity. I'm talking about what the Bible say. The bible don't say Trinity, but it say the only true GOD is the Father.
When the Trinity say that Jesus is divine, then it make him another GOD, because he is not the father.
So it is claim of only one GOD contradict the Bible.
The issue is how complex God is in relation to our concept of him. If there be a God I think our views of him are much more simplistic than the actual truth. Would you not agree?
We only know about GOD what he said about himself. GOD never said he in the form of triune, the church did. So I will believe what GOD said, and I will not believe the Church.
Also, the Bible says we were made in the image of God. Are we not a triune being as well?
What do you mean we are being triune. If you mean body , soule and spirit, you faild before to define the difference between soule and spirite. Also there are other aspects you ignore. So the answer is no we are not triune.
Do we not also talk to ourselves? Are you more than your arm or leg or your intellect? Do not these elements make up the whole sum of who you are?
That doesn't make any sense. Do you believe that GOD is composed of parts?