The divinity of Christ

Originally posted by Nemesio
Do I understand you correctly that you feel that His divinity (or lack thereof) is inessential to
Christian faith and the resultant duties that being a Christian demands?

Nemesio

One would think that what is essential to the Christian faith is to follow the teachings of Jesus.

I hesitated to get into this debate because I know it is a very difficult issue. However, I would not be honest with myself nor do the best for God and the Lord Jesus Christ if I did nothing....so here goes...

I also believe Jesus is the Son of God.
He is my Lord and Saviour.
He is the head of the church.
He is the image of the Living God.
He has been given all authority in heaven and on earth by God Himself because of His obedience.
I serve the Lord Jesus Christ with all my heart.

But He is not God.

Anyone can say when he sees my son, if you have seen him you have seen checkbaitor, because he is just like him. If I see my image in a mirror, I see myself, but that image in the mirror is not me.

If Jesus is God, He loses a great deal...When He was in the garden, praying to His Father, He sweated great drops as of blood. He trusted God to raise Him up after His crucifiction. The beating He suffered at the hands of the Romans...all of this does not mean as much to me if He is God. But if He is a man, as He really is, now that means something!

The only difference between an ordinary man and Jesus is that He did not inherit Adam's sin nature. He was the only man who loved God back perfectly. If He is a Godman as it is said, then He is like a Superhuman being. Did He really feel the scourging? When He prayed to God was He really sweating? When He said "not my will but yours be done" what does this mean?
No, and 100 times No. He was 100% man. There is no such thing as 100% one thing and 100% something else. That is 200% and becomes illogical.
Jesus was raised from the dead by God His Father. He did not raise Himself. If He did then He was not dead.
Jesus, the bible claims, "grew in wisdom and stature", why would God have to grow in wisdom and stature?
Jesus was tempted 40 days and nights by satan.Granted, He did not sin, but the bible says God cannot even be tempted...
God is not a "man" that He should lie. That is what the bible says. Jesus was a man.
Jesus did not know the hour He would return, only the Father knew. This is only scratching the surface. There is much more that supports what I am saying here.
I had a very difficult time coming to this conclusion, but at a point in my faith, I had to let the bible speak for itself. I had to pray earnestly. I am glad I did, because it has made love Jesus all the more.
In the old testament the bible claims, "The Lord our God is one". Nowhere does it imply that one means something other than one. Words mean things. Three is three, one means one.
If Jesus were God, I have to believe that Jesus would have come right out and said so. But He never did. All I hear is theology and twisting of words to suit certain denominations and traditions.
I would think that with the long Jewish history of one God in the old testament, that Paul would have corrected all of this and settled it once and for all, but instead I see just the opposite.

1 Cor 15:25-28
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
(NKJ)

I understand that there are mostly Trinitarians today. And for good reason. That is what they have been taught by their Leaders. But the one God one Lord concept is not new.
I do not have any ill will here towards other Christians. I believe that if you receive Jesus Christ as Romans 10:9,10 asks, then one is born again. I consider Trinitarians brothers and sisters in Christ. I would "lay down my life" to help a brother in Christ. I wish they would do the same for me, but I understand their hesitation and will continue to love people despite what they think. This, the Lord has taught me.
A good website that explains in more detail the verses used by those who support the trinity can be found here.....

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/

There are many "types" of Christ in the old testament. This is one of my favorites....think about God's position and Jesus's position here....


Gen 41:38-44
38 And Pharaoh said to his servants, "Can we find such a one as this, a man in whom is the Spirit of God?"
39 Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, "Inasmuch as God has shown you all this, there is no one as discerning and wise as you.
40 "You shall be over my house, and all my people shall be ruled according to your word; only in regard to the throne will I be greater than you."
41 And Pharaoh said to Joseph, "See, I have set you over all the land of Egypt."
42 Then Pharaoh took his signet ring off his hand and put it on Joseph's hand; and he clothed him in garments of fine linen and put a gold chain around his neck.
43 And he had him ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried out before him, "Bow the knee!" So he set him over all the land of Egypt.
44 Pharaoh also said to Joseph, "I am Pharaoh, and without your consent no man may lift his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt."
(NKJ)

Another interesting site...this is a video...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8436256589572340879&hl=en

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I hesitated to get into this debate because I know it is a very difficult issue. However, I would not be honest with myself nor do the best for God and the Lord Jesus Christ if I did nothing....so here goes...

I also believe Jesus is the Son of God.
He is my Lord and Saviour.
He is the head of the church.
He is the image of the Living God.
He ...[text shortened]... o support the trinity can be found here.....

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/

Well said. In addition if Jesus was God how could he :

- have been made a little lower than the angels
- sit on the right hand of God after ascending into heaven.
- give himself authority over the Earth.


".. but the bible says God cannot even be tempted... "

Read the first 3 chapters of Job and tell if if Satan tempted God or not.


"If Jesus were God, I have to believe that Jesus would have come right out and said so. But He never did. All I hear is theology and twisting of words to suit certain denominations and traditions. "

Good Point.
Applying this principle to our 'works' discussion in another thread we get :

"If Jesus knew works was not important for salvation, I have to believe that Jesus would have come right out and said so. But He never did. All I hear is theology and twisting of words to suit certain denominations and traditions. "

Originally posted by Rajk999
Well said. In addition if Jesus was God how could he :

- have been made a little lower than the angels
- sit on the right hand of God after ascending into heaven.
- give himself authority over the Earth.


".. but the bible says God cannot even be tempted... "

Read the first 3 chapters of Job and tell if if Satan tempted God or not.


"If Jesus ...[text shortened]... I hear is theology and twisting of words to suit certain denominations and traditions. "

Another important issue is identification with Christ. How do I identify with a superhuman Godman?

Originally posted by whodey
It was not my intent to adress this issue in this thread. If you would like to adress it, however, please feel free to start another. You know, no one like to be hijacked. 😉

Not my fault this time.

Originally posted by whodey
Yea or nay and why?

I don't really understand what you are searching for. Are you looking for a) reasons to think we are justified in asserting that Jesus was divine or b) evidence that Jesus claimed he was God or c) something else?

If a), then what should we take as a criterion for divinity? For instance, is it necessary and/or sufficient for one's being 'divine' that one be able to do things that are nomologically impossible?

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If the father is the only true GOD , and the son is divine, then your statement simply implyes that you have two GOSs.
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By human reasoning it would seem so. But when it comes to the revelation of God in Scripture we Christians are governed by what is written.

Now I already indicated one passage which proves that Jesus Christ taught that He was the God of the Old Testament which wanted to gather and protect Jerusalem. That was Matthew 23:37. And someone else pointed out Isaiah 9:6 which says two things - The child ... born shall be called the Mighty God and the Son... given shall be called Eternal Father.

So Christ is not only divine but is God Himself.

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Lets see what you say:


1- Jesus declare the father as the only true GOD.
2- And Jesus is not the father, because Jesus said the father is another person, John 5:32-37.
3- And you claim that the son , Jesus, is divine.
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1- Jesus declares the Father as the only true God in John 17:3. But ahosney, we are not taking ONLY one passage of Scripture to arrive at a full revelation. We must take other things written in the Scripture as well.

I told you that Matthew 23:37 definitely proves that Jesus considered Himself that God of the Old Testament. And He also declared that He was the great "I Am" who predated Abraham in John 8:58:

"Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being I am."

If you did not get the impact of this self proclamation that Jesus was saying He was the God - the "I Am" of Exodus 3:14, the Jews standing around certainly understood what He meant:

"So they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple" (John 8:59)

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So the result that you have two GODs.
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According to our human way of reasoning it would seem so.
But the Bible repeatedly teaches that there is only one God.
So we have on our hands a revelation of a mystery.

To me this is one of the proofs that the author of the Bible is God and not mankind. Men would never create such a troublesome logical problem.


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I think you better review your statement.
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I know that you should pray to God concerning these words of Jesus, about your own knowledge of the Father and the Son:

"All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one fully knows the Son except the Father; neither does anyone fully know the Father except the Son and him to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." (Matt. 11:27)

So you should pray that it would please the Son of God to reveal the Father to you. And you should let the Father and the Son come into your heart and into your spirit to make an abode with you. Otherwise you will never know God at all:

"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

There is no true knowing of the Father and the Son without the Father and the Son coming to make His abode within your being.


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ahosney the Muslim writes

I don't know what being a Muslim has to do with this. Does being a Muslim makes me a second class person. Or does it make me unqualified to talk to you. I see it doesn't make any sense.
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My pointing out you as a Muslim was not arbitrary. I did so for a specific reason which was explained in the post. It had NOTHING to do with class of citizenship.

It has to do with the fact that Islam (a religion) is dedicated to denying that God became incarnated. Islam (a belief) is dead set in opposition to God having passed through incarnation, death, resurrection, and life impartation.

It is the same with Judaism. You know something about God as Creator and even as Law Giver. And that part of your belief is true. What Muslims do not accept, because of the Quran, is that God has a Son, or that God can produce sons with His life and nature. And the Quran is against the incarnation of God into the man Jesus.

In Islam knowing God is really just knowing something objective ABOUT God.

Don't take my word for it. You have at least one participant from Islam. Ask him yourself if he knows God. I didn't say ask whether he knows some things, even true things, ABOUT God. I said ask him if he knows God.

In the New Testament knowing God is the Father and the Son coming to live in your being.

In the New Testament knowing God, knowing Jesus Christ, is RECEIVING God into your being to be your divine life. In the Gospel of Jesus knowing God Himself is based upon the divine BIRTH. And it is through the divine BIRTH that man can obtain the divine FELLOWSHIP with God.

The divine BIRTH is dependent on the Father and the Son and the Spirit coming INTO your being.

" ... If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and WE will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23 - my emphasis)

If you don't want the Father and the Son to redeem you from your sins and to come and make an abode within you, you can forget about knowing God - period.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Another important issue is identification with Christ. How do I identify with a superhuman Godman?

How? First you believe into Him.

When you believe into Him you receive the divine birth. That divine birth makes you like Him. He is God / man. When you are born again you also are God / man.

That is the beginning.

You are not God as an object of worship.
Nor are you omnipotent, omniscient, or omnipresent.
Nor are you a Creator of universes.

But you are, upon being born again, a partaker of the divine nature:

"Seeing His divine power has granted to us all things which relate to life and godliness ... He has granted to us precious and exceedlingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (See 2 Peter 1:4)

The divine birth makes you a brother of the Firstborn Son of God.

And the divine birth is the beginning of the process by which God can conform you to be like Christ as God-man (only not as an object of worship as the Godhead).

"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers.

And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified." (See Romans 8:29,30)

The saved identify with Him and shall be like Him.

Sons of God means this very thing. That is men and women who have inherited the life and nature of God.

Remember -- the Bible told us that the believers are "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4)

Originally posted by jaywill
In Islam knowing God is really just knowing something objective ABOUT God.

Don't take my word for it. You have at least one participant from Islam. Ask him yourself if he knows God. I didn't say ask whether he knows some things, even true things, [b]ABOUT God. I said ask him if he knows God.

In the New Testament knowing God is the Father a and to come and make an abode within you, you can forget about knowing God - period.[/b]

I will not talk about your previous replay, because I already said enought. So if you still in Jesus divinity which he never claimed it is up to you. But don't claim that you know GOD, because you simply ignore the definition give to him in your Bible.

I will talk only about the issue you raised.

Yes all Muslims know GOD. And I can say they are the only ones who know GOD.

Every Muslims remember Allah , our GOD , the GOD of Abraham , Moses and Jesus, every moment of his life. Any common Muslim is in a continues contact with GOD every moment of his day.

I will qoaute some verses from Quran, to tell what GOD tell us about himself: (It is from different places in Quran) Please read them they will help to review you ideas about what Muslims believe:

(Nobel-Translation)(Al-Baqarah 2)(o 255 o)(255. Allâh! Lâ ilâha illa Huwa -none has the right to be worshipped but He-, the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He knows what happens to them -His creatures- in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter . And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His Kursî extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. -This Verse 2:255 is called Ayat-ul-Kursî.-)
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(Nobel-Translation)(Al-Hashr)
(22. He is Allâh, than Whom there is Lâ ilâha illa Huwa -none has the right to be worshipped but He- the All-Knower of the unseen and the seen -open-. He is the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.)

(23. He is Allâh than Whom there is Lâ ilâha illa Huwa -none has the right to be worshipped but He- the King, the Holy, the One Free from all defects, the Giver of security, the Watcher over His creatures, the All-Mighty, the Compeller, the Supreme. Glory be to Allâh! -High is He- above all that they associate as partners with Him.)

(24. He is Allâh, the Creator, the Inventor of all things, the Bestower of forms. To Him belong the Best Names . All that is in the heavens and the earth glorify Him. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. )

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(Nobel-Translation)(Al-Ikhlas)
(1. Say -O Muhammad ---: "He is Allâh, -the- One.)
(2. "Allâh-us-Samad -The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks-.)
(3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten; )
(4. "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him." )

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(Nobel-Translation)(Az-Zumar)(53. Say: "O 'Ibâdî -My slaves- who have transgressed against themselves -by committing evil deeds and sins-! Despair not of the Mercy of Allâh, verily Allâh forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)



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You want to tell me that I have to believe that GOD was born a son so that I know GOD, although you are not able to prove that.

Actually you don't need to prove anything because Jesus himself don't agree with you.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Another important issue is identification with Christ. How do I identify with a superhuman Godman?

Christ behaved humanly. He did not always rely on "super human" activity.

For 30 YEARS he blended in with everyone in His home town and made no special stir.

For 30 YEARS He was just known as "the carpenter's son" and mixed in normally with the crowd of normal people around Him.

After 30 years He came forth to start His official ministry. Granted, at that time the Father performed some miracles through Him. This is true. But this was the exercise of His faith. Many people in the Old Testament also were used by God to perform miracles.

Jesus is fully human. He is fully man. Yet He is also fully God. He is the mingling of God and man.

Why? Because God's eternal purpose is such - TO MINGLE HIMSELF WITH HIS CREATURE MAN.

Jesus Christ is the prototype. God will mass produce many sons from the standard model of THE Son.

So the Bible says that Christ is the Author of salvation leading many sons into the glorious expression of the Divine Being:

" For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings." (Hebrews 2:10)

Did you see that ??? Christ is the Author of salvation leading many many sons of God into the divine expression of God - glory. Glory here is God expressed. When God is expressed that is ...Glory.

ahosney,

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You want to tell me that I have to believe that GOD was born a son so that I know GOD, although you are not able to prove that.
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What I proved to you is that the Bible said so.

Only the Holy Spirit can grant you revelation that this is the truth. I am not able to do that for myself, for you, or for anyone else.

But for certain I proved to you that that is what the Bible says in Isaiah 9:6. You can twist it and suppress it. You can ignore it and fight against it. But that will not make it unsaid.

Change it in your Bible if you don't like what it said. That will also not make it be unsaid:

"For a child is born to us, A Son is given to us; And the government is upon His shoulder; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

To the increase of His governemt and to His peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom to establish it and to uphold it in justice and righteousness from now to eternity.

The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will accomplish this." (Isaiah 9:6,7)

The child born is the Mighty God. That is God in incarnation as a human child.

The Son given is the eternal Father. That is the Father incarnated as a Son.

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Actually you don't need to prove anything because Jesus himself don't agree with you.
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I quoted to you verses which demonstrated He did. And His apostles confirmed the same.

You came to this discussion spiritually blind. You are going to leave this discussion MORE blind, unless God has mercy on you to open your eyes. Your problem does not lie in reading things spoken by Jesus or written in the Bible. Your problem lies in the hardness of your heart against the revelation of God.

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Every Muslims remember Allah , our GOD , the GOD of Abraham , Moses and Jesus, every moment of his life. Any common Muslim is in a continues contact with GOD every moment of his day.
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Okay, here you strongly contradict what I wrote that knowing about God is not knowing God Himself necessarily.

What is it like to be in contact with God every moment of the day?

Is God every moment telling you to only believe that Jesus was a prophet and not the Son of God? Is that what God is telling you in your heart all day?

That is not what God is telling me. It is impossible ... IMPOSSIBLE for me to exalt Jesus too highly. The more I exalt Jesus the happier this God is.