The Doctrine of Election

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
So if the daughter lives in Fort Lauderdale, Florida and is praying for her father's salvation three hours before his death in Bend, Oregon, is it up to God to respond to the prayer by getting someone to go to the hospital in Bend and provide words or tracts to the ailing man?

What percentage of the time do you think your deity does in fact come thr ...[text shortened]... ulation on your part, and therefore you may well decline to give a definitive numerical answer.)

Paul, thanks for your reply. Please clarify the hypothetical: a) Why would "the daughter who lives in Fort Lauderdale, Florida and is praying for her father's salvation" wait until "three hours before his death in Bend, Oregon"? b) With reference to the arithmetic reduction: "What percentage of the time do you think your deity does in fact come through in situations like that? (Unless you can get your deity to speak the answer audibly to you, this calls for speculation on your part, and therefore you may well decline to give a definitive numerical answer.)" 'God isn't willing that any should perish but that all should come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and His substitutionary spiritual death,' the numerical is a function of positive volition.

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
Bob, had you been living in Europe in 1150 and you prayed that God would supply accurate gospel information to whatever tribes might live on whatever continent(s) might be way off west across the Atlantic Ocean, do you believe God would have honored your prayer? If He didn't start the process going in the Americas until the 1500s when white settlers we ...[text shortened]... ith that? With the Hellish fate of the native Americans who died unsaved during those centuries?

The Doctrines of Heathenism and Principles of Manifest Destiny are deserving of a thread of their own.
Iffy historical speculations lead nowhere, though they may provide for lively pub conversation.

For the atheists what are your thoughts on these verses(Listed in the main post) Knowing that someday you'll either be without God for all eternity or that someday in the future you might repent of your sins and accept Christ as your Savior?

Originally posted by sonship
I have just three questions for you JS357.

1.) If there exists a greatest possible [b]goodness is it logical to believe that correspondingly there is a greatest possible evil ?

2.) If there is a greatest conceivable truth then would there conversely exist a greatest possible lie ?

3.) If there existed a greatest conceivabl ...[text shortened]... ical that there also conversely, could be a greatest conceivable misfortune ?

Thanks[/b]

I have tried some replies and realize I am puzzled by these questions. What are they in response to? Is this the beginning of an argument for hell (eternal torment) on the basis that it is or symbolizes the GPE that is as possible as the GPG, heaven (eternal salvation)? And that hell is a greater possible evil than annihilation? Edit: for all I know, the existence of hell might be a greater net good than any alternative(s).

I think this discussion would properly start with a discussion of possibility and then move on to greatness.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Paul, thanks for your reply. Please clarify the hypothetical: a) Why would "the daughter who lives in Fort Lauderdale, Florida and is praying for her father's salvation" wait until "three hours before his death in Bend, Oregon"?

She got a call earlier that day that he had fled from a house fire and had smoke damage to his lungs, and was in critical condition.

Originally posted by RBHILL
For the atheists what are your thoughts on these verses(Listed in the main post) Knowing that someday you'll either be without God for all eternity or that someday in the future you might repent of your sins and accept Christ as your Savior?

I may have reservations about the idea that I am an 'atheist' as some theists here think of the term, but my response to those verses at this point in my life is whatever will be, will be. Meanwhile, I continue to explore.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Paul, the sole purpose of a believer's prayer for unbelievers is that they may receive accurate gospel information and give it thoughtful consideration. If an unbeliever becomes interested [changes his/her mind], the Holy Spirit's convicting ministry will make the academic information understandable as absolute truth. If the unbeliever then decides to b ...[text shortened]... for eternal salvation the Holy Spirit, the executor of salvation, completes the spiritual birth.

Bob, how would you handle this prayer challenge from me?

"Precious Lord God, Your servant Rev. John Hagee may believe that You are only inclined to get accurate gospel information into the hands of an individual after some close relatives or friends of that individual have prayed for You to do such a thing. But in James 5:16 You promised that the prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. In accordance with that scripture, I, Bob ______, pray that You will get accurate gospel information into the hands of ALL human beings who walk this planet from June 1, 2014 onward, without regard to whether any friends or relatives bother to pray for that. The only exception would be that those who are too young to be accountable--and thus too young to read or understand the gospel--can die and be taken to Heaven without having received the information. Amen."

(This is sort of a "cut out the middle man" prayer, see.)

Originally posted by JS357
I have tried some replies and realize I am puzzled by these questions. What are they in response to? Is this the beginning of an argument for hell (eternal torment) on the basis that it is or symbolizes the GPE that is as possible as the GPG, heaven (eternal salvation)? And that hell is a greater possible evil than annihilation? Edit: for all I know, the exist ...[text shortened]... discussion would properly start with a discussion of possibility and then move on to greatness.

I don't know if puzzlement is the real problem. Maybe you don't like what you think you'll end up saying.

So you probe to see if you're getting into the matter of hell and eternal torment.

I think the questions can be answered without a problem. I'll give my answers:

1. ) It is logical to me that if there is a greatest truth that the negation of that greatest truth is the greatest lie.

2.) A greatest goodness should have an antithesis as well - the greatest wrong doing.

3.) The greatest benefit, I think is logically corresponded to with its antithesis - the greatest conceivable woe.

If or if not theism is true, I think these are logical conclusions.

Originally posted by RBHILL
For the atheists what are your thoughts on these verses(Listed in the main post) Knowing that someday you'll either be without God for all eternity or that someday in the future you might repent of your sins and accept Christ as your Savior?

What are your thoughts, knowing that if a billion Muslims are correct, your rejection of Allah and his prophet Muhammad means you are going to miss out on their Paradise and their virgins?

I lose as much sleep over one thought as the other--which is to say, very little.

Originally posted by sonship
I don't know if puzzlement is the real problem. Maybe you don't like what you think you'll end up saying.

So you probe to see if you're getting into the matter of hell and eternal torment.

I think the questions can be answered without a problem. I'll give my answers:

1. ) It is logical to me that if there is a greatest truth that the negation of ...[text shortened]... atest conceivable woe.

If or if not theism is true, I think these are logical conclusions.

My puzzlement feels sincere. Care to deal with what I probed? Is eternal torment a greater evil than annihilation? Is it a an evil that outweighs the greatness of the greatest good? Justification for one great (evil or good) outweighing the greatness of the other?

Originally posted by sonship
I don't know if puzzlement is the real problem. Maybe you don't like what you think you'll end up saying.

So you probe to see if you're getting into the matter of hell and eternal torment.

I think the questions can be answered without a problem. I'll give my answers:

1. ) It is logical to me that if there is a greatest truth that the negation of ...[text shortened]... atest conceivable woe.

If or if not theism is true, I think these are logical conclusions.

According to the Bible eternal torment is reserved for Satan, the False Prophet and the Beast. No others will be punished this way. All other punishment is death.

I have already several times asked for a reference for your doctrine that everyone that is not in the Kingdom of God will be tormented for all eternity and instead you produce long dissertation type posts which make no sense.

Do you have a reference to share?

Originally posted by RBHILL
For the atheists what are your thoughts on these verses(Listed in the main post) Knowing that someday you'll either be without God for all eternity or that someday in the future you might repent of your sins and accept Christ as your Savior?

RB, I'm sure you realize that "repent" in context means to change your mind about the claims, work and person of Christ.

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
She got a call earlier that day that he had fled from a house fire and had smoke damage to his lungs, and was in critical condition.

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
She got a call earlier that day that he had fled from a house fire and had smoke damage to his lungs, and was in critical condition. [... an "ailing man."]

Paul, a loving Christian daughter doesn't delay until the 11th Hour to pray for an unbeliever father when he's about to expire. Nonetheless, let's ride the hypothetical one more mile. Would it be within the realm of possibility and probability that she had witnessed to Dad before and that he said, "Nah. I don't buy that crap. Besides, I'm not in control of my volition"?

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
Bob, how would you handle this prayer challenge from me?

"Precious Lord God, Your servant Rev. John Hagee may believe that You are only inclined to get accurate gospel information into the hands of an individual after some close relatives or friends of that individual have prayed for You to do such a thing. But in James 5:16 You promised that the ...[text shortened]... eceived the information. Amen."

(This is sort of a "cut out the middle man" prayer, see.)

"Precious Lord God, Your servant Rev. John Hagee may believe that You are only inclined to get accurate gospel information into the hands of an individual after some close relatives or friends of that individual have prayed for You to do such a thing." -PD II

Incorrect to insert "only inclined"; no unbeliever is dependent on another person's prayer. It's a cop out to assume so.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Incorrect to insert "only inclined"; no unbeliever is dependent on another person's prayer. It's a cop out to assume so.

Do you believe that your God figure already knows in advance that a believer's prayers for an unbeliever are a waste of time [in cases where that is so]?