1. Standard membervivify
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    01 Jun '14 03:596 edits
    For those who don't know, the "Doctrine of Election" is the belief held by many Christians (known as "Calvinists" ) that those who will be saved and those who are going to hell, are predetermined by God. This is discussed in Romans 9:14-21.

    This then means that if God is real, then there is nothing anyone can do to become saved, nor can they do anything to avoid hell. The bible passage posted includes these words:

    “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

    16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

    The obvious problem this brings, is that it seems rather unfair. In my opinion, the bible's reasoning concerning this doesn't offer much consolation:



    Romans 9-

    19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

    In other words, we don't have the right to complain about the unfairness of this, because he's God and does what he wants.

    Any thoughts from Christians here regarding this?
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    01 Jun '14 04:201 edit
    As a nonbeliever who has spent thousands of hours listening to Christian broadcasting without buying into what they are selling, I can say that this doctrine always struck me as unfair. It also seems contrary to the Great Commission of the New Testament-- the command for believers to evangelize the world.

    I remember radio preacher R.C. Sproul talking about it on his program roughly fifteen years ago. He said that he had to be "dragged kicking and screaming" into the doctrine of election during his seminary days, having been convinced by a teacher there that it really is what the Word of God is claiming is true.
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    01 Jun '14 05:55
    Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
    As a nonbeliever who has spent thousands of hours listening to Christian broadcasting without buying into what they are selling, I can say that this doctrine always struck me as unfair. It also seems contrary to the Great Commission of the New Testament-- the command for believers to evangelize the world.

    I remember radio preacher R.C. Sproul talkin ...[text shortened]... ng been convinced by a teacher there that it really is what the Word of God is claiming is true.
    Presumably every Christian believes that God knows beforehand the eternal fate of each soul He allows to come into this world. Is this presumption (about Christian belief, not about God's foreknowledge) wrong? Are there (true) Christians who believe God is ignorant of the eternal fate of each soul He allows to be created?
  4. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    01 Jun '14 06:33
    Originally posted by vivify
    For those who don't know, the "Doctrine of Election" is the belief held by many Christians (known as "Calvinists" ) that those who will be saved and those who are going to hell, are predetermined by God. This is discussed in Romans 9:14-21.

    This then means that if God is real, then there is nothing anyone can do to become saved, nor can they do anything t ...[text shortened]... because he's God and does what he wants.

    Any thoughts from Christians here regarding this?
    "Election" means chosen, selected, set apart for privilege and is the plan of God for believers in Christ. Election is God's agreement with His foreknowledge: His omniscience which knew before the fact who would choose to believe in Christ.
  5. SubscriberFMF
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    01 Jun '14 06:58
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    "Election" means chosen, selected, set apart for privilege and is the plan of God for believers in Christ. Election is God's agreement with His foreknowledge: His omniscience which knew before the fact who would choose to believe in Christ.
    Do you believe that, if ~ for example ~ people like yourself and RJHinds are turning people away from Christ, due to your demeanour and example, then this is part of God's plan and happens with His foreknowledge?
  6. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    01 Jun '14 07:29
    Originally posted by vivify
    For those who don't know, the "Doctrine of Election" is the belief held by many Christians (known as "Calvinists" ) that those who will be saved and those who are going to hell, are predetermined by God. This is discussed in Romans 9:14-21.

    This then means that if God is real, then there is nothing anyone can do to become saved, nor can they do anything t ...[text shortened]... because he's God and does what he wants.

    Any thoughts from Christians here regarding this?
    God is supposed to be all-knowing, and the creator of all humans. This means he knew everything that each human was going to do before he ever made them.

    If we accept all that as true, then how does God not determine the fate of every soul in advance? He cannot avoid it.
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    01 Jun '14 07:482 edits
    Election can be a very powerful tool of faith in prayer.

    "Lord Jesus, since you KNEW that I was Selected to love you, Lord grow my love for you."

    It is not necessary to adopt a strong position on "the doctrine of election". There are some passages upon which theologians could conceivably develop a whole doctrinal system in a systematic way. But one can simply take the biblical statements of election and apply them by faith in prayer.

    "Lord Jesus, you elected me to overcome this weakness of anxiety. So Lord according to Your election supply me with grace to overcome my anxiety."

    The Lord Jesus will honor your faith. Grace will flow.

    I think God honors this kind of prayer which practically lays hold of His word. It is not necessary that one be so totally preoccupied with argumentation about a doctrinal system to prove it is without loop holes.

    Say a person is so enslaved by lust that he cannot imagine giving up his sinning to follow Jesus Christ. He can use the statements about election but faith -

    "Lord Jesus, since you elected me to be saved and be presented before God holy and without blemish, then according to your election flow in me. Cause me to overcome this lust in my flesh. Thank you Lord Jesus for your mighty election."

    Use election is faith rather than fight over election for doctrinal arguments.

    Even the unbeliever when presented with a baffling concept of predestination and election can in faith apply God's word.

    " Dear Lord Jesus. I understand that you predestinated me unto eternal salvation. Thankyou Lord Jesus. I now receive You as my Lord and Savior according to Your foreknowledge, according to your wonderful election."

    But some may argue, (folk love to argue) - "But how do I KNOW that God has ordained me to become His saved believer? Maybe I was elected to be lost forever."

    Think of eternal life as room. On the outside the sign reads "Whosoever wills". But once one enters into the room and turn around he sees a sign above the door which reads "Chosen before the foundation of the world."

    I encourage the use of the statements on election to gain Christ and to gain more of Christ.
  8. Standard memberKellyJay
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    01 Jun '14 08:20
    Originally posted by vivify
    For those who don't know, the "Doctrine of Election" is the belief held by many Christians (known as "Calvinists" ) that those who will be saved and those who are going to hell, are predetermined by God. This is discussed in Romans 9:14-21.

    This then means that if God is real, then there is nothing anyone can do to become saved, nor can they do anything t ...[text shortened]... because he's God and does what he wants.

    Any thoughts from Christians here regarding this?
    Yea, can you imagine, who does He think He is, God?
    Kelly
  9. Standard memberKellyJay
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    01 Jun '14 08:311 edit
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    "Election" means chosen, selected, set apart for privilege and is the plan of God for believers in Christ. Election is God's agreement with His foreknowledge: His omniscience which knew before the fact who would choose to believe in Christ.
    It is better for us that God does it that way in my opinion or none of us
    would have been saved. God calls us all, we choose to answer yes or no.
    It is by God's grace we are saved, not our efforts, He calls we answer,
    that keeps our efforts off the books so to speak, if it did depend on us
    we would fail. We are saved by grace not works or our efforts.
    Kelly
  10. Standard memberAgerg
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    01 Jun '14 09:42
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    It is better for us that God does it that way in my opinion or none of us
    would have been saved. God calls us all, we choose to answer yes or no.
    It is by God's grace we are saved, not our efforts, He calls we answer,
    that keeps our efforts off the books so to speak, if it did depend on us
    we would fail. We are saved by grace not works or our efforts.
    Kelly
    Just a thought ... what if you are mistaken about being saved yourself? What if you made a mistake when you answered what you thought was God's call?

    Have you made adequate contingency plans for a possible fate of boiling, burning and writhing in a ceaseless state of excruciating pain in the lake of fire for all eternity? 🙂
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    01 Jun '14 10:521 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    For those who don't know, the "Doctrine of Election" is the belief held by many Christians (known as "Calvinists" ) that those who will be saved and those who are going to hell, are predetermined by God. This is discussed in Romans 9:14-21.

    This then means that if God is real, then there is nothing anyone can do to become saved, nor can they do anything t ...[text shortened]... because he's God and does what he wants.

    Any thoughts from Christians here regarding this?
    I was attempting to discuss this in my predestination and Noah thread but it go hijacked by the "god is a genocidal maniac" argument, so thanks for brining it up again.

    The bible points to both predestination and free will, therefore (from a bible believing perspective), both are truth. The reason there is so much angst among Christians on this doctrine is the same reason there is angst about the trinity - Christians want a finite doctrine to believe in.

    There is evidence that god is three people (or at least three manifestations sometimes simultaneously). But three people fundamentally does not fit with how god describes himself, so Christians have made up a cartoon to explain this, it's called the trinity doctrine.

    With predestination I have known of Christian husbands who will not talk to their wives because the wife believes in the sovereignty of god. Doctrinal polarisation divides people, families.

    Both are premises are true, predestination and free will. Somewhere it is written:

    "many are called but few are chosen"

    This does not mean that some are rejected, it means that some have no choice in their salvation and some have an option. Many here will disagree with me, but that's fine too.
  12. SubscriberFMF
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    01 Jun '14 11:191 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    I was attempting to discuss this in my predestination and Noah thread but it go hijacked by the "god is a genocidal maniac" argument, so thanks for brining it up again.
    If God knew beforehand that the ark only had to be big enough for Noah's family plus animals, despite all Noah's unrecorded/irrelevant preaching to the entire doomed human race[did the people in China get to hear him at first hand? Now there's a thought. Did the bible mention his trip around the world to warn people?], then the "predestination" thing adds a certain cela prend le biscuit to the genocide angle.
  13. Standard memberRajk999
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    01 Jun '14 13:161 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    I was attempting to discuss this in my predestination and Noah thread but it go hijacked by the "god is a genocidal maniac" argument, so thanks for brining it up again.

    The bible points to both predestination and free will, therefore (from a bible believing perspective), both are truth. The reason there is so much angst among Christians on this doctri ...[text shortened]... n their salvation and some have an option. Many here will disagree with me, but that's fine too.
    I have to agree with these statements. In my view the predestination part applies to the very good or the very evil people. The leaders of the church and Gods chosen to do a particular work .. Enoch, Samuel, David, all the Prophets, Apostles etc were predestined and they had no choice. Jonah tried to run but he could not. Evil and wicked like Cain, Pharoah [tried to soften up but God hardened his heart], Nebuchadnezzar etc all were evil from birth and were predestined to live this evil life.

    The rest of us normal people have a choice. God does not interfere but will guide if you choose God and righteousness. If you chose evil and sin then God will let you loose to do as you wish.
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    01 Jun '14 13:202 edits
    Originally posted by divegeester
    I was attempting to discuss this in my predestination and Noah thread but it go hijacked by the "god is a genocidal maniac" argument, so thanks for brining it up again.

    The bible points to both predestination and free will, therefore (from a bible believing perspective), both are truth. The reason there is so much angst among Christians on this doctri ...[text shortened]... n their salvation and some have an option. Many here will disagree with me, but that's fine too.
    There is evidence that god is three people (or at least three manifestations sometimes simultaneously). But three people fundamentally does not fit with how god describes himself, so Christians have made up a cartoon to explain this, it's called the trinity doctrine.


    Divegester, since I know you would not like to hijack this thread to be about your problems with the Trinity, you could air your complaints in a thread dedicated to that.

    Perhaps you could start by forwarding some discussion of the Trinity which you saw mentioned the phrase "three people".

    I'm beginning to think that the "trinity" that you do not believe in is not the Trinity that I believe in. But you never seem to say enough for me to grasp your complaint.

    Do you erect strawman arguments of Tritheism (three Gods) to knock down and state then that you are not a trinitarian ?

    Where did you read from an astute teacher of the Bible about "three people" ? Or was that expression just an aid to bolster some sense of contempt for the three-oneness of God as many capable minds have contemplated ?
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    01 Jun '14 13:23
    Originally posted by FMF
    If God knew beforehand that the ark only had to be big enough for Noah's family plus animals, despite all Noah's unrecorded/irrelevant preaching to the entire doomed human race[did the people in China get to hear him at first hand? Now there's a thought. Did the bible mention his trip around the world to warn people?], then the "predestination" thing adds a certain cela prend le biscuit to the genocide angle.
    Yes I tend to agree. I mentioned the difficulty in preaching to the whole world in that other thread myself.
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