The Doctrine of Election

Originally posted by vivify
God also knew which children will be victims of rape. Does that mean God had determined this fate for those children?

A human life can be worth living even if the person is raped. It is reasonable that a beneficent god who knew the person would be raped, would allow such a person to be born.

Presumably you believe that a human life can be worth living even if the person is unsaved. I say this because it seems you believe it is reasonable that a beneficent god who knew the person would be unsaved, would allow such a person to be born.

It is generous of you to believe that a human life that does not end with salvation can be worth living.

Originally posted by divegeester
Head what way? My post is presenting evidence that some people are predestined for destruction.

People always end up where they are going, unless they change the
direction they are heading. Nothing new there!
Kelly

Originally posted by divegeester
I've discussed my views on the trinity doctrine in depth several times and across many threads. If you want to discuss the trinity again and you wish to avoid hijacking this thread, then it is not my place to start a thread for you.

I've discussed my views on the trinity doctrine in depth several times and across many threads.

I know you have mentioned it on many threads usually when someone mentions the word Trinity or Triune God. But my recollection is just miscellaneous grumbles.

Direct me to the thread where your complaints are most succinctly laid out.

If you want to discuss the trinity again and you wish to avoid hijacking this thread, then it is not my place to start a thread for you.

I assume that probably you never heard any responsible presentation of the Trinity which used your grumbled at phrase "three people."

Originally posted by JS357
A human life can be worth living even if the person is raped. It is reasonable that a beneficent god who knew the person would be raped, would allow such a person to be born.

Presumably you believe that a human life can be worth living even if the person is unsaved. I say this because it seems you believe it is reasonable that a beneficent god who knew the ...[text shortened]... nerous of you to believe that a human life that does not end with salvation can be worth living.

Does "can be worth living" excuse deliberately causing suffering to children too young to even comprehend their suffering? Or deliberately causing people to suffer in horrific manner under the Vlad the Impaler? And does living a life "worth living", that may last maybe 80 years, justify eternity in hell?

*Note: I say "deliberately", because of the posters here who say God's foreknowledge of these events is evidence that he orchestrated them, or something to that effect.

Multiple times I have heard radio preacher John Hagee say, "If you want your parent or your spouse or your son or your daughter to be saved... [dramatic pause] PRAY!"

Isn't the idea Rev. Hagee is espousing that salvation is contingent, not pre-ordained? That through petitionary prayer you can get God to provide salvation, maybe even at the last minute when the person being prayed for is on his or her deathbed?

To give a concrete example, Paula and Debbie are both in the radio audience when Rev. Hagee gives out this advice. Paula prays for the salvation of her elderly father. Debbie is busy with organizing a bake sale for next Saturday, so she puts off praying for her father. Overnight both fathers die. Does it make sense to believers that because of the bake sale situation, Debbie's father spends an infinite number of years in the pit of Hell, while Paula's father spends eternity in Paradise?

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
Multiple times I have heard radio preacher John Hagee say, "If you want your parent or your spouse or your son or your daughter to be saved... [dramatic pause] PRAY!"

Isn't the idea Rev. Hagee is espousing that salvation is contingent, not pre-ordained? That through petitionary prayer you can get God to provide salvation, maybe even at the la ...[text shortened]... n infinite number of years in the pit of Hell, while Paula's father spends eternity in Paradise?

Paul, the sole purpose of a believer's prayer for unbelievers is that they may receive accurate gospel information and give it thoughtful consideration. If an unbeliever becomes interested [changes his/her mind], the Holy Spirit's convicting ministry will make the academic information understandable as absolute truth. If the unbeliever then decides to believe it by placing his/her confidence in Christ for eternal salvation the Holy Spirit, the executor of salvation, completes the spiritual birth.

Originally posted by vivify
Does "can be worth living" excuse deliberately causing suffering to children too young to even comprehend their suffering? Or deliberately causing people to suffer in horrific manner under the Vlad the Impaler? And does living a life "worth living", that may last maybe 80 years, justify eternity in hell?

*Note: I say "deliberately", because of the poste ...[text shortened]... oreknowledge of these events is evidence that he orchestrated them, or something to that effect.

Apparently, allowing (not causing) all those horrors is part of God's plan. That seems undeniable from a Christian POV, even if we can quibble over wording.

The idea of God deliberating and orchestrating do not seem right to me. I simply used the word allowed. I simply wondered whether God has the power to disallow a human from being born, for whatever reason He wants, including foreknowledge of what that human's life would be like or whether the human will be saved. The answer I expected was that whatever God allows or disallows is for the best in accordance with God's plan. Some humans that could be conceived are not, some are miscarried, etc.

WRT eternity in hell, I sense two distinct Christian views exist here. One is eternal, conscious suffering, whether physical, mental or both, the other is annihilation; irrevocable termination of existence. I'm leaving aside the denominational differences.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Yes.. 🙂

and how is such a god "all-benevolent" and "perfect"?

Originally posted by JS357

I have just three questions for you JS357.

1.) If there exists a greatest possible goodness is it logical to believe that correspondingly there is a greatest possible evil ?

2.) If there is a greatest conceivable truth then would there conversely exist a greatest possible lie ?

3.) If there existed a greatest conceivable benefit would you find it logical that there also conversely, could be a greatest conceivable misfortune ?

Thanks

Originally posted by KellyJay
People always end up where they are going, unless they change the
direction they are heading. Nothing new there!
Kelly

They don't always end up where they are going then!
Nice contradiction in a single sentence.
Completely illogical.
Nothing new there.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Paul, the sole purpose of a believer's prayer for unbelievers is that they may receive accurate gospel information and give it thoughtful consideration.

So if the daughter lives in Fort Lauderdale, Florida and is praying for her father's salvation three hours before his death in Bend, Oregon, is it up to God to respond to the prayer by getting someone to go to the hospital in Bend and provide words or tracts to the ailing man?

What percentage of the time do you think your deity does in fact come through in situations like that? (Unless you can get your deity to speak the answer audibly to you, this calls for speculation on your part, and therefore you may well decline to give a definitive numerical answer.)

Originally posted by Agerg
and how is such a god "all-benevolent" and "perfect"?

The idea of an all-benevolent God is not in the Bible.
The idea of a perfect God is. So the issue is probably that if you think God is not perfect then maybe your definition of perfect is not the same as the Bible definition.

Originally posted by JS357
WRT eternity in hell, I sense two distinct Christian views exist here. One is eternal, conscious suffering, whether physical, mental or both, the other is annihilation; irrevocable termination of existence. I'm leaving aside the denominational differences.

The church of my youth pointed to the passage about "wailing and gnashing of teeth" and maintained it was infinitely-long anguish for the unsaved.

That said, I think I have noticed a trend on Christian broadcasting toward espousing either i) destruction of the soul after a brief taste of Hell, or ii) an eternity of mere "separation from God, since after all God is a gentleman, and wouldn't force the person to be around Him if the person had gone a lifetime on earth not wanting to walk with Him."

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Paul, the sole purpose of a believer's prayer for unbelievers is that they may receive accurate gospel information...

Bob, had you been living in Europe in 1150 and you prayed that God would supply accurate gospel information to whatever tribes might live on whatever continent(s) might be way off west across the Atlantic Ocean, do you believe God would have honored your prayer? If He didn't start the process going in the Americas until the 1500s when white settlers were beginning to push just past the eastern fringe of those continents, that would mean that He ignored your prayer for four centuries. Would you be at peace with that? With the Hellish fate of the native Americans who died unsaved during those centuries?

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
So if the daughter lives in Fort Lauderdale, Florida and is praying for her father's salvation three hours before his death in Bend, Oregon, is it up to God to respond to the prayer by getting someone to go to the hospital in Bend and provide words or tracts to the ailing man?

What percentage of the time do you think your deity does in fact come thr ...[text shortened]... ulation on your part, and therefore you may well decline to give a definitive numerical answer.)

You could question these guys along those lines till the cows come home and you will never get a satisfactory answer.

Here is the correct thing to say - Nobody has the all-inclusive formula for eternal life, unless they include all the information that the Bible contains [and almost nobody does that these days] :
- faith in God
- belief that Christ died for us
- change of heart and mind towards good and away from evil
- love God
- baptism
- love your neighbour as yourself
- live righteously
- avoid sin.
- repent of sins

The Bible at some point or the other places emphasis on at least one of the above as a prerequisite for eternal life. How Christ will judge is a mystery and those who claim to know are just fooling themselves.

Modern Christianity generally now has twisted the teachings of Paul and concludes that all that is required for eternal life is #2 above. Personally I will stick with 'I dont know that for sure', so I wont trust my salvation on that doctrine.