The Doctrine of Election

Originally posted by Rajk999
I have to agree with these statements. In my view the predestination part applies to the very good or the very evil people. The leaders of the church and Gods chosen to do a particular work .. Enoch, Samuel, David, all the Prophets, Apostles etc were predestined and they had no choice. Jonah tried to run but he could not. Evil and wicked like Cain, Pharoah [ ...[text shortened]... God and righteousness. If you chose evil and sin then God will let you loose to do as you wish.

Nebuchadnezzar etc all were evil from birth and were predestined to live this evil life.
By whom? All-benevolent, "perfect" "God"!??

Originally posted by sonship

There is evidence that god is three people (or at least three manifestations sometimes simultaneously). But three people fundamentally does not fit with how god describes himself, so Christians have made up a cartoon to explain this, it's called the trinity doctrine.

Divegester, since I know you would not like to hijack this thread to be ...[text shortened]... er some sense of contempt for the three-oneness of God as many capable minds have contemplated ?

I've discussed my views on the trinity doctrine in depth several times and across many threads. If you want to discuss the trinity again and you wish to avoid hijacking this thread, then it is not my place to start a thread for you.

Originally posted by Agerg
Just a thought ... what if you are mistaken about being saved yourself? What if you made a mistake when you answered what you [b]thought was God's call?

Have you made adequate contingency plans for a possible fate of boiling, burning and writhing in a ceaseless state of excruciating pain in the lake of fire for all eternity? 🙂[/b]

If I had proof it wouldn't be faith. I trust the Word of God and what it says
about salvation and God's grace and mercy. Besides, what could you do
about what happens after death? The life here is all we have a part in that
we get a say in and after 30+ years, I'd say God is faithful.
Kelly

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]Nebuchadnezzar etc all were evil from birth and were predestined to live this evil life.
By whom? All-benevolent, "perfect" "God"!??[/b]

Yes, it's an interesting point isn't it. Here is something I posted the predestination and Noah thread:

Romans 9:21-23
…21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,…

Paul is saying "what if..." But does that constitute his premise being true; how literal is this statement and if it's not true then what's the point of Paul using it. It certainly does say or at least imply, that some people are vessels made for destruction.

Originally posted by divegeester
Yes, it's an interesting point isn't it. Here is something I posted the predestination and Noah thread:

Romans 9:21-23
…21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured w ...[text shortened]... it. It certainly does say or at least imply, that some people are vessels made for destruction.

The majority are going to head that way, it is still who so ever will, but the
very sad truth is not many will.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
The majority are going to head that way, it is still who so ever will, but the
very sad truth is not many will.
Kelly

Head what way? My post is presenting evidence that some people are predestined for destruction.

Originally posted by vivify
The obvious problem this brings, is that it seems rather unfair.

W....w.....wut?

Hold the phones, life is unfair?!!

Why wasn't I told about his sooner? 😠

Originally posted by whodey
W....w.....wut?

Hold the phones, life is unfair?!!

Why wasn't I told about his sooner? 😠

When one is living in a cold and indifferent universe governed only by simple
uncaring laws of physics then fairness shouldn't be expected.

However, when one is talking about a universe supposedly created by an
intelligent being, for other intelligent beings, it becomes quite reasonable
to complain that life isn't fair, as there is an intelligence that could have
made it so.

If you want to claim that god made the universe, and what's more made it
for us, then the general capriciousness and unfairness of the universe is
something that can be laid at gods feet, so to speak.

And it's not unreasonable to thus ask you to come up with a good explanation
for why it is that your god made a universe for us that is so obviously unsuitable
for us. Because for all the claims people make about the earth being perfect for
human life... I can assure you that people have been imagining and designing
far more conducive places for us to live, any of which you god could have
presumably bettered.

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]Nebuchadnezzar etc all were evil from birth and were predestined to live this evil life.
By whom? All-benevolent, "perfect" "God"!??[/b]

Yes.. 🙂

Originally posted by googlefudge
.. I can assure you that people have been imagining and designing
far more conducive places for us to live, ...

Any moron can do that. Can anyone actually MAKE ?

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
God is supposed to be all-knowing, and the creator of all humans. This means he knew everything that each human was going to do before he ever made them.

If we accept all that as true, then how does God not determine the fate of every soul in advance? He cannot avoid it.

There's a difference between knowing who will choose to be saved, and picking who gets saved and who doesn't. That's the problem

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"Election" means chosen, selected, set apart for privilege and is the plan of God for believers in Christ. Election is God's agreement with His foreknowledge: His omniscience which knew before the fact who would choose to believe in Christ.

That's not correct. The bible clearly says in the passage I posted, that salvation is not by human effort or desire,. It's only God's doing, according to the bible. Thus knowing who'll "choose" salvation can't be a factor at all.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
God is supposed to be all-knowing, and the creator of all humans. This means he knew everything that each human was going to do before he ever made them.

If we accept all that as true, then how does God not determine the fate of every soul in advance? He cannot avoid it.

God also knew which children will be victims of rape. Does that mean God had determined this fate for those children?

Originally posted by divegeester
I was attempting to discuss this in my predestination and Noah thread but it go hijacked by the "god is a genocidal maniac" argument, so thanks for brining it up again.

The bible points to both predestination and free will, therefore (from a bible believing perspective), both are truth. The reason there is so much angst among Christians on this doctri ...[text shortened]... n their salvation and some have an option. Many here will disagree with me, but that's fine too.

Interesting. Thank you for your input.

Originally posted by vivify
That's not correct. The bible clearly says in the passage I posted, that salvation is not by human effort or desire,. It's only God's doing, according to the bible. Thus knowing who'll "choose" salvation can't be a factor at all.

"8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [a]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9. not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 New American Standard Bible "Footnotes: a. i.e. that salvation."

"... through faith": one of three means of rational perception [along with empiricism and rationalism] is non-meritorious and assigns no credit to the person exercising uncoerced volition or free will [the same uncoerced volition or free will you use to decide on e2-e4 rather than d2-d4 in your chess games or not to play any games at all]. It's not Russ' "doing according" to RHP TOS; each site member's volition decides. God's Justice means He's fair and respects our decision for or against Christ.