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revealed in different ways in different times.
God is revealed in different ways AT THE SAME TIME in a few places.
So to say He is revealed as Father but WHILE SO, He is not revealed as Son and Holy Spirit would be wrong.
He is revealed differently at the baptism of Jesus SIMULTANEOUSLY and at the same time. And to somehow criticize those who attempt to speak of this wonder will usually be to level a criticism which YOU YOURSELF are unable to escape.
"I can talk about it with my explanations. But you are not to talk about it with your explanations" is hypocritical.
God is simultaneously revealed as three _______s at ONE TIME with ONE [singular] name:
Go therefore and disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the [SINGULAR] NAME of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 28:19)
I know that you may be quick to point out that in Acts they baptized new believers in or into or upon (depending on the verse) the name of Jesus. With this we agree. With this we have no argument.
We are not speaking about what to SAY when baptizing people as a formula. The fact is that the one name means the one God or the one "Person". He did not say into the NAMES of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.
So the one name and one God is "Father - Son - Holy Spirit". The three are one and the one is three. And it is, as you seem to finally confess below, a mystery.
Nothing has been added to the nature of God, he is changeless.
The matter of God not changing is also not easy to understand. If someone claims that there is no difficulty in explaining the unchanging God, I would disagree.
Yes God doesn't change. But if "the Word became flesh" then that strongly implies that what He was not before, He became.
If the Word were eternally flesh then there would be no need for the Word to BECOME flesh. Yet we are told that the Word Who was God became flesh.
So the unchangingness of God is one side of the mystery and the Word becoming what the Word was not before the Word BECAME, - that is another side of the mystery.
Christians ought not to emphasize God's unchanging to the point that they disbelieve the incarnation of God as a man.
And even this matter of WHEN God was manifested as a man has its mysteriousness. For though He was not yet born of Mary, He was manifested as a man in the Old Testament a few times.
For example, Abraham had lunch with three men in Genesis 18 one of which was Jehovah God. In time this seems before "the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us" (John 1:14).
So it is not as simple as we would like it to be. Nor is it possible to systematize the revelation of the Bible 100%. It alludes total theological systemazation.
Below you FINALLY come around, IMO, to admitting that there is mystery to the revelation of God. I have said that all along.
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Jesus as a man is the “right arm laid bare”, revealed. It is the same person just a different aspect of him, of his nature.
Jesus is that Word which was God who became flesh.
And flesh is not eternal. Human nature had its BEGINNING. God created man (Genesis 1:26,27). So God incarnated into His own creation.
It is not easy to say "the right arm of God laid bare" was eternally something that had to have had a BEGINNING in God creating it.
We would have to say that Jesus is the Person Who is both the uncreated and the creation simultaneously.
And what God clothed Himself in He uplifted, sanctified, glorified, and exulted, namely God in man. And He will never put this away. He remains God-man forever.
So as you admit below finally, it is so mysterious as not to be able to so easily talk about. But previously you boasted that it is so simple.
For me the highest truths in this are:
God is one and He changes not, ever.
So in Ron Gangus's book "Modalism, Tritheism, or the Pure Revelation of the Triune God "
would you agree with this paragraph under the heading of One Unique God ? Please read the paragraph carefully considering the verses and tell me if you concur.
One Unique God
The Bible clearly and definitely reveals that God is uniquely one. With this there can be no argument, for it is revealed plainly in both the Old and New Testaments. Deuteronomy 6:4 says, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord,” and Isaiah 44:6 declares, “Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel… I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me there is no God.” In Isaiah 44:8, the Lord asks a question and then answers it Himself: “Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.” Coming to the New Testament, we see that 1 Corinthians 8:4 says, “There is none other God but one”; that Romans 3:30 says, “It is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith”; that Galatians 3:20 says, “God is one”; and that 1 Timothy 2:5 says, “There is one God.”Therefore, it is abundantly clear that according to the revelation of the pure Word of God, God is uniquely one. Whatever else we may say about Him must be governed by this fundamental principle.
I think you should agree with this so far.
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Therefore all other scriptures which indicate anything other than this high truth are being misinterpreted if they contradict it. Terms such as “we” “us”, Jesus praying to his father, Jesus being abandoned on the cross. These cannot contradict the higher truth that God is one.
After the paragraph on "One Unique God" there is another paragraph under the heading "The Three Persons of the Godhead"
It starts like this:
The Three Persons of the Godhead
To use Govett’s words, while the Bible reveals that there is only one God, “the Scripture as plainly affirms the distinction of persons in the Godhead.”70 In Isaiah 6:8 God says, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Here, on the one hand God speaks of Himself as “I,” and on the other hand as “Us.” This proves that “I” is “Us” and that “Us” is “I.” Then, is God singular or plural? This is a mystery. In Genesis 1:26 God also speaks of Himself as “Us.” In His divine words, the one unique God frequently speaks of Himself as “Us.” This must be due to the three Persons of the Godhead – the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.71
Matthew 28:19 says, “Baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Gk.). Here we clearly see the three Persons – the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. However, although the Father, Son, and Spirit are three, the name is one. This name tells us that God is three-in-one. Although God is uniquely one, there is still the matter of the three Persons – the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. To quote Griffith Thomas:
The threefold distinction in God, which is expressed by the word ‘Trinity, ‘ is the attempt of man to conceive and express the meaning of the Infinite God in the terms of Jesus Christ, and we believe that the use of the phrase, ‘The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, ‘ is the very best rendering of the mystery that can be given.72
I do not need a non biblical man made construct (the trinity) to account for this.
This strictness you abandon though when YOU speak of AVATAR to attempt to explain the manifestation of God.
Ie.
"Me - OK to talk about avatar."
"Others - Not OK for them to talk about trinity."
Your behavior shows introducing extra biblical words like others.
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So in my heart and mind I have this:
God is one and unchanging, ever
Every aspect of his person is eternal
But man was CREATED by God (Genesis 1:26,27)
So incarnation must mean that God took on to His unchanging being something which had a beginning in being in existence.
He will never put it away for eternity.
Jesus appeared in the flesh on a certain day
On that day he became a son, and he became a father, but he is not a separate person “he is the invisible God made visible”
Well, I can understand this. But it is not as simple to explain because there is a HE - A PERSON who was in the beginning with God. It was not an attribute but a Person (for lack of a more suitable word).
"He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being." (John 1:2,3)
So what can we do? There is a "Person" who was God and was with God. "He" was in the beginning with God.
And "He" - this Person became flesh. The Bible says God sent forth His Son. So before Jesus was born this Person was with God, was God, became flesh.
So we have to say Jesus came to be on one hand but Jesus is eternally living on the other hand.
The higher truth that God is one and he is unchanging does not flinch.
But now we see this man Jesus and we then also see this dove decending and we feel compelled to explain it. Hence, the trinity. But it is error. God is one and unchanging.
The logic doesn't follow that to speak of three-oneness is an error.
And you resort to explanations about avatars.
What has changed is the focus and name given by which we are saved. Instead of a covenant of law of the name of Yahweh we have been given a new name of the same god to describe this new revelation of his eternalness, this Jesus, this God saves. Yeshua.
That is all well and good. But three-oneness is accurate because you have a "He" was in the beginning with God and was God.
I don't think suppressing this is an indication of you being more biblical, or somehow uncomplicating and simplifying the mystery of God.
This is my position on the Godhead and has been for three decades.
Furthermore I suspect, although I have no scripture to support it, that when the son hands the kingdom over to the father we will be given another name to know him by.
Well, here I would remind you that the new name which is given to Jesus no one knows except Himself.
"And His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems, and He has a name written which no one knows but Himself." (Rev. 19:12)
Revelation 3:12 does say He will write on the overcomers His new name.
This should mean that He dispenses Himself into them and makes them one with Himself so as to be thoroughly their Owner.
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@divegeester
Who sounds upset now?
Okay, stay with your sentimental half truths.
You're still a liar.
A busy liar on his way to France.
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Folks, years ago I took Divegeester's twisting of my words about other worlds and clearly said I did not know of lives on other planets. Years ago I told him my words should not be taken to portray me as insisting that I knew about other lives on other planets.
More recently, I told him that "worlds" in the NT Greek usage could also mean ages. In other words "other worlds" could mean "other ages" on this planet.
But you see, his cherished slanders are really all he'll ever have.
Because every subsequent argument he wants to have with me seems to get weaker then the last he ever reaches back to this nostalgia.
At heart all he has is slander.
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The bible tells us it is a mystery “the mystery of God in Christ”. I have no issue with this. I will always and without exception fall back on “hear oh Israel the Lord your God is one” as this is the higher truth.
I "fall back" on ANY part of the total revelation of God without preference to what suits my favorite part. You never saw me fight down or fight against Deuteronomy 6:4.
As Paul told Timothy.
"I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels that you keep these things without prejudice, doing nothing by way of partiality." (1 Timothy 5:21)
DIvegeester wants to hold to some things and always "fall back" on where lies his prejudice and partiality - a verse that he thinks is the best sectarian argument against the three-oneness of God.
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I really don’t care that you pray to multiple persons, ...
The slanderer Divegeester wants to mock believers who pray distinctly to the Father at some times and to the Son at others.
We're in good company.
Paul prayed to the Father in Eph. 3:14
and prayed to the Lord Jesus, the Son of God in Second Cor. 12:8 .