The First Question

The First Question

Spirituality

F

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21 Oct 18

@secondson said
It is illogical to assume something doesn't exist simply because one doesn't believe it exists, just as being ignorant of the law doesn't make one immune from prosecution for breaking it.
I'm not talking about whether or not someone is prosecuted for breaking a law they are ignorant of. I am talking about whether someone can be accused of wilfully and consciously disobeying a law they don't believe exists. No, of course they can't. Look you believe what you believe, that's fine. I don't believe it, and that's fine. But the way you're trying to make your case here is just plain sophistry.

w

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21 Oct 18

@secondson said
In the Bible.

"Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"
Genesis 3:1

But that isn't a question. It's an insinuation.

The first question is; "Where art thou?"
Genesis 3:9

Are you hiding from God, naked and afraid, covering yourself with fig leaves of excuses?

And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all ...[text shortened]... thy might.
Deuteronomy 6:5

What's your excuse for not obeying the commandment of your maker?
What's my excuse to my Maker?

Putin done it.

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21 Oct 18

@proper-knob said
@SecondSon

You don't have Odin.
I was going to go with Vishnu.

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@secondson said
They don't have Jesus.
Come sir, I started my reply to you with 'I accept you believe that.'

Can you not extend the same sentiment to Hindus, and accept 'they believe' that creation is evidence for the existence of Vishnu?

Sinner

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21 Oct 18

@fmf said
I'm not talking about whether or not someone is prosecuted for breaking a law they are ignorant of. I am talking about whether someone can be accused of wilfully and consciously disobeying a law they don't believe exists. No, of course they can't. Look you believe what you believe, that's fine. I don't believe it, and that's fine. But the way you're trying to make your case here is just plain sophistry.
Ok, but just because you don't believe it doesn't mean you haven't heard, which means, if it turns out you're wrong, you'll still give an account.

When you stand before Jesus in judgment "I didn't believe it" won't be a defense, especially since the whole thing has been laid out in front of you thousands of times.

Not believing Jesus rose from the dead is disobedience in the extreme since it's so obviously true.

Cornovii

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21 Oct 18
1 edit

@secondson said
Not believing Jesus rose from the dead is disobedience in the extreme since it's so obviously true.
This forum is like the gift that keeps giving. Are you trying to save the forum with comedy gold like this?

Evidence please for this gem, you’re drastically in short supply so far in this thread.

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21 Oct 18

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Come sir, I started my reply to you with 'I accept you believe that.'

Can you not extend the same sentiment to Hindus, and accept 'they believe' that creation is evidence for the existence of Vishnu?
Why do you ask sir such a question to which the answer is so obvious?

Of course I accept that others believe differently. Why wouldn't I? I am bewildered by the insinuation that I don't. It's unjustified. I promote the gospel of Jesus Christ, and would be most disingenuous if I didn't!

Yet still, I have the resurrected Lord Jesus as my saviour, and the assurance of eternal life based on the grace of God, and not by the perfection of performance, but by the perfection of relationship.

I never hear of that from Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Taoist or anyone else. In fact, to obtain nirvana or gain access to paradise, or whatever is promised by their sacred texts, one must adhere to a strict standard of performance, and yet still no guarantee of eternal life without working for it.

If that's not true I'd like to see it in writing.

And even though some so-called Christians claim that one must "keep the commandments" to have eternal life, the Bible makes it abundantly clear that eternal life is a gift given by the grace of God, and they are unable to distinguish between what it means to "do good works" for a reward and eternal life through faith in the shed blood of Christ.

The hope of the Christian is incomparable.

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21 Oct 18

@proper-knob said
This forum is like the gift that keeps giving. Are you trying to save the forum with comedy gold like this?

Evidence please for this gem, you’re drastically in short supply so far in this thread.
You keep supplying the unbelief and I'll keep supplying the truth.

How do you like that one?

Here's another. What's comedic is your begging for evidence for the obvious.

Cornovii

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21 Oct 18

@secondson said
You keep supplying the unbelief and I'll keep supplying the truth.

How do you like that one?

Here's another. What's comedic is your begging for evidence for the obvious.
Begging? What are you wittering on about?

I’m asking you to substantiate your claims in this thread with some evidence or at least a coherent argument. Surely that’s not too much to ask in a debate forum.

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@proper-knob said
Begging? What are you wittering on about?

I’m asking you to substantiate your claims in this thread with some evidence or at least a coherent argument. Surely that’s not too much to ask in a debate forum.
Do you mean the obvious evidence you're already aware of?

Surely you're jesting what with all the begging for evidence. If not, then obviously you lost the capacity to reason when you discarded God from your life.

Now don't start getting all worked up and name calling ok? 😆

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21 Oct 18

@secondson said
Why do you ask sir such a question to which the answer is so obvious?

Of course I accept that others believe differently. Why wouldn't I? I am bewildered by the insinuation that I don't. It's unjustified. I promote the gospel of Jesus Christ, and would be most disingenuous if I didn't!

Yet still, I have the resurrected Lord Jesus as my saviour, and the assurance of et ...[text shortened]... ternal life through faith in the shed blood of Christ.

The hope of the Christian is incomparable.
My point was simply sir that 'creation' is not evidence for the existence of the Christian God, as the same 'evidence' is used by other religions to support the existence of their particular deities.

From the point of view of an atheist, you are all claiming the 'same evidence' validates your Deity. - So you may very well be right to point at a flower and say it was created by a God, but you are unable to 'evidence a link' to your particular God to the exclusion of all others. (Outside of your own religious text).

T

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21 Oct 18
1 edit

@secondson said
Why do you ask sir such a question to which the answer is so obvious?

Of course I accept that others believe differently. Why wouldn't I? I am bewildered by the insinuation that I don't. It's unjustified. I promote the gospel of Jesus Christ, and would be most disingenuous if I didn't!

Yet still, I have the resurrected Lord Jesus as my saviour, and the assurance of et ...[text shortened]... ternal life through faith in the shed blood of Christ.

The hope of the Christian is incomparable.
And even though some so-called Christians claim that one must "keep the commandments" to have eternal life

This is the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.

For example:
John 8
34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
31...If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
51“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”



... the Bible makes it abundantly clear that eternal life is a gift given by the grace of God...through faith in the shed blood of Christ.

This is not the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. It's a gospel preached by others. It's a remarkably self-serving gospel.

R
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21 Oct 18
2 edits

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

My point was simply sir that 'creation' is not evidence for the existence of the Christian God, as the same 'evidence' is used by other religions to support the existence of their particular deities.


It is much more evidence of the God of the Christian faith then it is for your atheism.

Christ, revealed as God manifest in the flesh, displayed a command over the forces of nature. And that to the point that even death could not destroy Him.

No one in history is as good a candidate for being responsible for calling into being the creation than the God of the Bible via His Son Jesus Christ.

If this is not absolutely evident, it is far more evident then the nothing of Atheism being responsible for the existence of creation.

It is far more logical also then an eternally existing universe.

It is also more likely in the eyes of some reluctant atheists who admit the universe seems to be intelligently fine tuned for humanity and higher life forms.

The Universe: Past and Present Reflections
Engineering and Science, 11/81, p8-12.
"Would you not say to yourself, 'Some super-calculating intellect must have designed the properties of the carbon atom, otherwise the chance of my finding such an atom through the blind forces of nature would be utterly minuscule. A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question.'"


http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Nave-html/Faithpathh/Hoyle.html

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@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

My point was simply sir that 'creation' is not evidence for the existence of the Christian God, as the same 'evidence' is used by other religions to support the existence of their particular deities.


It is much more evidence of the God of the Christian faith then it is for your atheism.

Christ, revealed as God manifest in the flesh, ...[text shortened]... beyond question.'" [/quote]

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Nave-html/Faithpathh/Hoyle.html
"It is far more logical also then an eternally existing universe."


No, it isn't.

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For those of you who haven't read it, here is some of the 'Hymn of Creation' (from the Rigveda) which I personally find beautifully poetic and also humble in its uncertainty:

Then even nothingness was not, nor existence,
There was no air then, nor the heavens beyond it.
What covered it? Where was it? In whose keeping?
Was there then cosmic water, in depths unfathomed?

Then there was neither death nor immortality
nor was there then the torch of night and day.
The One breathed windlessly and self-sustaining.
There was that One then, and there was no other.

At first there was only darkness wrapped in darkness.
All this was only unillumined cosmic water.
That One which came to be, enclosed in nothing,
arose at last, born of the power of heat.
...

But, after all, who knows, and who can say
Whence it all came, and how creation happened?
the devas (gods) themselves are later than creation,
so who knows truly whence it has arisen?

Whence all creation had its origin,
the creator, whether she/he fashioned it or whether she/he did not,
the creator, who surveys it all from highest heaven,
she/he knows - or maybe even she/he does not know.

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