The "free gift"

@indonesia-phil said
No you didn't, we weren't discussing what your God could do, we were discussing whether a Christian with a bit of faith could move a mountain just by talking to it, and with your usual candour you said that you might believe that such a thing was possible, but you don't have enough faith to do it, but maybe somebody else could, and it's sort of metaphorical and sort of ...[text shortened]... rite debating techniques when you're backed into a corner. 'I never said that, what I meant was....'

Here it is the whole passage. It certainly is not just a metaphor

Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
(Matthew 21:21-22 KJV)

If you have the smallest amount of faith and truly believe, you can do just about do anything, AND RECEIVE ANYTHING, you ask God for.

Would be interesting to find out from Christians who boast about their faith whether or not all their prayers have been answered, or is that metaphorical as well.

@rajk999 said
Here it is the whole passage. It certainly is not just a metaphor

[i]Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in pray ...[text shortened]... ut their faith whether or not all their prayers have been answered, or is that metaphorical as well.

When you have faith and trust in God, know you’re nothing without him, it’s his will/guidance you pray for. Along for with him working through you for his glory, strength in all. It’s God not us, we’re his creation.

@mike69 said
When you have faith and trust in God, know you’re nothing without him, it’s his will/guidance you pray for. Along for with him working through you for his glory, strength in all. It’s God not us, we’re his creation.

Your opinion on this matter is noted.

@rajk999 said
Your opinion on this matter is noted.

I appreciate that superstar.

@kellyjay said
Like suggesting some point is worthless while not pointing out the point that you think is worthless? For crying out loud, be specific, at least point out what it is you find problematic, not some vague reference to any number of things said in any number of posts.

You have an issue with the mindlessness verse mind discussion, maybe I have to say it was metaphorical one or two more times for you to see it? What is it you are crying about now?

'I don't believe what Jesus said was purely metaphorical there.'

Your words, so you can tell me as many times as you like that 'it was metaphorical', but that isn't what you said at first, was it, that is my specific point.

When did I say or suggest that anything was 'worthless'; I did not, nor do I find any of this 'problematic'. Nor, by the the way, do I have an 'issue' with the 'mindlessness verse (sic) mind discussion, but that isn't the discussion we're having now, is it?

@indonesia-phil said
'I don't believe what Jesus said was purely metaphorical there.'

Your words, so you can tell me as many times as you like that 'it was metaphorical', but that isn't what you said at first, was it, that is my specific point.

When did I say or suggest that anything was 'worthless'; I did not, nor do I find any of this 'problematic'. Nor, by the the way, do I have ...[text shortened]... he 'mindlessness verse (sic) mind discussion, but that isn't the discussion we're having now, is it?

Pick one, I said the statement was metaphorical, nonetheless, God who created the universe could move a mountain if need be. So both work in that case. Do you feel I have to pick one?

Personally, I think you are arguing just because you feel the need to not that there is anything in anything I said that there is an issue with.

@kellyjay said
Pick one, I said the statement was metaphorical, nonetheless, God who created the universe could move a mountain if need be. So both work in that case. Do you feel I have to pick one?

Personally, I think you are arguing just because you feel the need to not that there is anything in anything I said that there is an issue with.

What? You mean 'pick' one of the things you say you believe are true and decide which one is the actual thing that you believe is true. It's like my saying that my favourite colour is red and my favourite colour is blue, and leaving you to decide which is my favourite colour. It's quite ridiculous.

I'm not actually arguing, I'm asking you to justify contradictory statements, which you're clearly not going to do. And there's clearly no point in taking issue with your belief that your god could move mountains if it wanted to, since you can't prove that your god exists, so the whole thing is without intellectual foundation.

@rajk999 said
Here it is the whole passage. It certainly is not just a metaphor

[i]Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in pray ...[text shortened]... ut their faith whether or not all their prayers have been answered, or is that metaphorical as well.

Wonderfully quoted text, how about showing scripture where Jesus put works above faith? You seem to be able to quote scripture, but as you rant about Christians who believe that God saves us by His grace through faith, we can point to text, and even Jesus' words where He says believing in Him is the work of God. You have your opinion so far backing up your claims, and nothing else.

I can point to places in scripture where Jesus rejected people with works, and the humble asking for forgiveness received it. Can you point to where Jesus said that works are more important than faith?

@indonesia-phil said
What? You mean 'pick' one of the things you say you believe are true and decide which one is the actual thing that you believe is true. It's like my saying that my favourite colour is red and my favourite colour is blue, and leaving you to decide which is my favourite colour. It's quite ridiculous.

I'm not actually arguing, I'm asking you to justify contradictory s ...[text shortened]... , since you can't prove that your god exists, so the whole thing is without intellectual foundation.

It isn't an either-or.

@indonesia-phil said
What? You mean 'pick' one of the things you say you believe are true and decide which one is the actual thing that you believe is true. It's like my saying that my favourite colour is red and my favourite colour is blue, and leaving you to decide which is my favourite colour. It's quite ridiculous.

I'm not actually arguing, I'm asking you to justify contradictory s ...[text shortened]... , since you can't prove that your god exists, so the whole thing is without intellectual foundation.

I have shown you evidence for God, but only God can prove Himself I cannot, you see things that are not naturally done, that have a supernatural element in the explanation transcending the natural world, and you ignore, with any excuse, because any excuse will do. It isn't that there isn't evidence, being shown, because if it gets accepted, as soon as you do, you lose a big excuse, it is an all-or-nothing type of thing.

@kellyjay said
Wonderfully quoted text, how about showing scripture where Jesus put works above faith? You seem to be able to quote scripture, but as you rant about Christians who believe that God saves us by His grace through faith, we can point to text, and even Jesus' words where He says believing in Him is the work of God. You have your opinion so far backing up your claims, and nothin ...[text shortened]... forgiveness received it. Can you point to where Jesus said that works are more important than faith?

Judgment Day ... All People are judged
Whoever does good works get eternal life.
Whoever does no good works do not get eternal life.
No mention of faith.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. (Matthew 25:31-36 KJV)

Jesus gives eternal life to ALL those who do good works.

@rajk999 said
Judgment Day ... All People are judged
Whoever does good works get eternal life.
Whoever does no good works do not get eternal life.
No mention of faith.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from ...[text shortened]... e unto me. (Matthew 25:31-36 KJV)

Jesus gives eternal life to ALL those who do good works.

The whole Bible you need to look at the whole thing! There is also text that has people telling Jesus about their works and He tells them depart from me I never knew you. As well as in 2 Peter 3 where heavens and earth will pass away and the works done on it will be exposed, and in 1 Corinthians 3 where a man may suffer due to his works because they will be burned up, but he will be saved.

In the scripture you quoted does NOT have Jesus saying works trump faith. So you made that up?

@kellyjay said
The whole Bible you need to look at the whole thing! There is also text that has people telling Jesus about their works and He tells them depart from me I never knew you. As well as in 2 Peter 3 where heavens and earth will pass away and the works done on it will be exposed, and in 1 Corinthians 3 where a man may suffer due to his works because they will be burned up, but he ...[text shortened]... d.

In the scripture you quoted does NOT have Jesus saying works trump faith. So you made that up?

Jesus said to follow Him. So Im content doing that. You follow your church and the whole bible so I guess you are happy doing that.

I said 'works trump faith'. Not once did I say that Jesus said 'works trump faith'. Clearly you failed to understand judgment day in Matt 25. Instead you are grasping at twisted interpretations from other writers, and vainly trying to ignore what Jesus preached.

@rajk999 said
Jesus said to follow Him. So Im content doing that. You follow your church and the whole bible so I guess you are happy doing that.

I said 'works trump faith'. Not once did I say that Jesus said 'works trump faith'. Clearly you failed to understand judgment day in Matt 25. Instead you are grasping at twisted interpretations from other writers, and vainly trying to ignore what Jesus preached.

So it is your doctrine not Jesus.

@rajk999 said
Jesus said to follow Him. So Im content doing that. You follow your church and the whole bible so I guess you are happy doing that.

I said 'works trump faith'. Not once did I say that Jesus said 'works trump faith'. Clearly you failed to understand judgment day in Matt 25. Instead you are grasping at twisted interpretations from other writers, and vainly trying to ignore what Jesus preached.

Nothing about that scripture suggests work trumps faith. You take one scripture as if that is the only one that deals with the topic and ignore the rest.