The human need to outgrow God

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
You can do better than this sonship.

When I log in tomorrow I expect a better question.

😏

Well look at the OP he had as a basis for replying

Originally posted by @romans1009
Well it seems that the higher educated and more affluent types do not believe in God (at least in the traditional or mainstream sense) and instead favor pantheism (or some vague notion that the universe itself is God) and they pay little attention to the subject beyond that.

God and human pride do not co-exist.

So are the lower and less educated cl ...[text shortened]... man species back? What could/would they be doing if they weren’t in church or reading the Bible?

Hang on. It seems to you ' that the higher educated and more affluent types do not believe in God?!...'

That's really how it seems to you, that the more educated a person the less likely they are to believe in God?

Oh dear. Quick retract and obfuscate.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
I created a thread a while ago about how I felt God (or at least 'the idea' of God) was holding us back as a species.

I'll happily concede that faith gives strength, comfort and hope to those who have it, but such a reliance on a divine force to 'lift us up' seriously impedes our shared human enterprise of 'rising up' of our own accord.

How much faster would we have progressed as a species without God holding us back?

Religious institutions have contributed immensely to social structure and tthey were responsible for some of hte first institutions of learning.

I also think that you must be more familiar iwth a really liberal Catholic or Protestant perspective.

Our religion tries to motivate us towards moral perfection and vigorous work.

If we were to have no religion at all, I can almost imagine people being more invested in casual hedonism than in the pursuit of the abstract and 'adding value,' so to speak.

Originally posted by @romans1009
How many theists “pore over” religious texts in your view? This thread topic reminds me of that crazy analogy you came up with that collapsed from its own illogical absurdity.

Imagine for a moment God doesn't exist. Think of all those people throughout history who have shut themselves away pointlessly in monasteries and nunneries.

It's tragic.

Originally posted by @philokalia
Religious institutions have contributed immensely to social structure and tthey were responsible for some of hte first institutions of learning.

I also think that you must be more familiar iwth a really liberal Catholic or Protestant perspective.

Our religion tries to motivate us towards moral perfection and vigorous work.

If we were to have n ...[text shortened]... invested in casual hedonism than in the pursuit of the abstract and 'adding value,' so to speak.

'If we were to have no religion at all, I can almost imagine people being more invested in casual hedonism...'


The problem with that sentiment sir is that millions of non-believers seem to exist quite happily without God and without falling into a pit of casual hedonism. I hope you agree with that?

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Imagine for a moment God doesn't exist. Think of all those people throughout history who have shut themselves away pointlessly in monasteries and nunneries.

It's tragic.

I could see why you would say that but I disagree.

They attain spiritual peace and perfection. Of course, perhaps some were always miserable, but even if there is no God, they have attained some great clarity of mind.

Some of these people were, at points in history, among the only literate people that there were.

Many of these people also performed lots of charitable services that were very fulfilling.

Don't tell me you are one of those guys like oh geez they never had SEX! WHAT ABOUT SEX?! SEXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
'If we were to have no religion at all, I can almost imagine people being more invested in casual hedonism...'


The problem with that sentiment sir is that millions of non-believers seem to exist quite happily without God and without falling into a pit of casual hedonism. I hope you agree with that?

Not particularly.

There is probably a billion or so atheists, sure. Some of them do not have the means for hedonism.

But those who do often do engage in casual hedonism to a large degree, and the West is degenerating.

Do you think the West is degenerating?

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Hang on. It seems to you ' that the higher educated and more affluent types do not believe in God?!...'

That's really how it seems to you, that the more educated a person the less likely they are to believe in God?

Oh dear. Quick retract and obfuscate.

That’s in perfect keeping with the Bible. Pay particular attention to Verse 26.


“For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

That no flesh should glory in his presence.”

(1 Corinthians 1:17-29)

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Imagine for a moment God doesn't exist. Think of all those people throughout history who have shut themselves away pointlessly in monasteries and nunneries.

It's tragic.

Imagine for a moment God does exist. Think of how many atheists missed out on the opportunity to know the Creator of the universe while they were alive and suffered the consequences of their unbelief after death.

It’s tragic.

Originally posted by @romans1009
That’s in perfect keeping with the Bible. Pay particular attention to Verse 26.


“For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Fo ...[text shortened]... ught things that are:

That no flesh should glory in his presence.”

(1 Corinthians 1:17-29)

Great passage. Some of us have been going over First Corinthians.

Originally posted by @philokalia
Not particularly.

There is probably a billion or so atheists, sure. Some of them do not have the means for hedonism.

But those who do often do engage in casual hedonism to a large degree, and the West is degenerating.

Do you think the West is degenerating?

Not particularly.

Originally posted by @sonship
Great passage. Some of us have been going over First Corinthians.

Do you concur with his statement?


'that the higher educated and more affluent types do not believe in God?!...'

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Do you concur with his statement?


'that the higher educated and more affluent types do not believe in God?!...'

He has some ground in First Corinthains to say something like that.

But from my experience I don't think either side can boast that "All the educated and intelligent people are on our side" as much as it is tempting to assert that.

Besides "belief in God" to me is not the end all, but living in oneness with God is what is really important.

Atheists seem to think the binary switch :
1 = belief in God,
0 = unbelief in God
... is the be all and end all of the matter.

If that were the only matter then the Bible would be cut in length by perhaps 85 %.

More to my interest is the asinine notion that "God has held us human species back." He's held us BACK from too quickly descending into total chaos. In that sense God has restrained us and held us back. The story of Noah's flood demonstrates that.

The problem of man and God is that there is more than those two parties.

The triangular situation in the universe involves man at one point God and another point and God enemy at a third point.

As the years go by this makes more sense to me then ever before. In God's infinite wisdom He decided to determine something up front. That is Who will have the ultimate authority God or an anti-God champion.

It appears that God allowed an nemesis to come into existence of its own will - someone with that high qualifications to actually challenge Him. This being would act as a grand repository under which all rebellion would be subsumed.

This being is temporary. But God allowed this challenger of immense intelligence, beauty, power, cunning to develop in order to settle the potential controversy forever of sentient created beings with freedom of choice.

God allowed a (probably) highest deputy authority to mount an opposition party of all other beings who shared his philosophy - independence from the Creator.

Man is in the middle. And on this side Satan is trying to persuade man that he (Satan) is god and that God is evil.

And on the other side God is demonstrating His love, His faithfulness, His salvation to this man.

In this universe we have Truth - man - Slander.

The philosophy that there is no God I see as only a temporary stage in the shift from God to Satan as the ultimate authority.

The Bible shows that a virtual polarization will clarify this warfare. Christ and Antichrist will eventually physically fight against one another, let alone spiritually fight.

"And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet as those of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion.

And the dragon [Satan] gave him [the Antichrist] his power and his throne and great authority.

And one of his heads was as if it had been slain to death, and his death stroke was healed. And the whole earth marveled after the beast.

And they worshipped the dragon because he gave authority to the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like the beast? And who can make war with him? " (Rev. 13:2-3)

Jesus can.

Atheism is only a temporary stop along the way to Satan worship.

Originally posted by @philokalia
Religious institutions have contributed immensely to social structure and tthey were responsible for some of hte first institutions of learning.

I also think that you must be more familiar iwth a really liberal Catholic or Protestant perspective.

Our religion tries to motivate us towards moral perfection and vigorous work.

If we were to have n ...[text shortened]... invested in casual hedonism than in the pursuit of the abstract and 'adding value,' so to speak.

Imagination bias, if I may coin a phrase, is even more free of objectivity than confirmation bias. Of course you can "...almost imagine people being more invested in casual hedonism than in the pursuit of the abstract and 'adding value,' so to speak" If you happen to believe it already and have no need of factual information.