Originally posted by SuzianneI think what humans claim to be their God figure's concept of "justice" can be analysed in any way people want ~ including comparison to competing religions' concept of "justice" and to anything that falls within the relevant parts of human terms of reference. I can accept, however, that Christians might well assert that Christians comparing the Christian God to man is somehow not permitted or false.
It was addressing the comparison. A comparison you were asking if he was making.
I found your reply to be more pointing towards what I was addressing. The comparison.
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Originally posted by yoctobyteI do not claim to be 'proficient in the Greek'. Unfortunately, of those here who claim to be, a few clearly aren't. While some are clearly more proficient than others, there are some who have no concept of what may constitute 'popular usage' of Greek in Judea at the time.
I have seen a lot about 'eternal torment', anybody proficient enough in the Greek to share what the definition may be?
Can we just take the term 'eternal torment' and guess what it means from our own knowledge of English? Or are you addressing what the writer meant by using whatever Greek words we translate as 'eternal torment'?
Also, another point. When I use the term 'eternal torment', what I mean is 'eternal torment'. A tormenting that goes on forever. What I'm referencing with those words is the idea that many Christians believe is the end result of Judgement upon unrepentant sinners. I personally believe this Judgement will result in the Annihilation of the soul (in the Lake of Fire, btw, not to confuse anyone who might think I do not believe in the Lake of Fire just because I do not believe in 'eternal torment' ), not 'eternal torment', which is why I just call it 'eternal torment' instead of 'Judgement' or something else.
I'm not fully sure that there is any place in scripture that uses Greek words for what I'm calling 'eternal torment', I am not sure that exact phrase occurs in scripture.
Edit: What an insightful comment, yoctobyte. I just looked on the site Blue Letter Bible and in the KJV at least, there is no occurrence of the phrase 'eternal torment' OR 'eternal punishment'. I think that says enough.
Originally posted by FMFYou don't know how bad the crimes are. I assume just by your use of the
So if we held ALL citizens to the same standard and executed them for petty crimes would that be "fair"? Would it be "justice"?
word 'petty' you must feel not much in human experience would make that
worthy.
Kelly
Originally posted by FMFPeople are being charged with things they do, the fact that Jesus is the
The notion of "Justice" that is under scrutiny here is the one that claims that all people who do not believe in Jesus ~ when their natural lives come to an end ~ will be punished by being burned in excruciating agony for all eternity.
Do you endorse and/or subscribe to this notion of "Justice"?
If you don't subscribe to it, then consider the OP which sugg ...[text shortened]... ical 'scenario' is perhaps the darkest place that human imaginings have ever been. Do you agree?
only escape for our bad behavior does not mean that people are punished
due to not believing in Jesus! They are punished because they are sinners
standing before a Holy God giving an account for their lives.
I believe in a devil's hell, that all sinners who do not accept the offer given
by God for forgiveness will find themselves in. I believe that God offers us
His grace and mercy where we will not face the wrath of God in any degree
for our crimes, and those that face God's wrath will not find any mercy in
the wrath of God in their judgment.
Kelly
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Originally posted by KellyJayIf you are claiming that people will NOT be punished for being "unbelievers" then it means you disagree with the notion of "justice" and "eternal torment" that was referenced in the OP.
People are being charged with things they do, the fact that Jesus is the only escape for our bad behavior does not mean that people are punished due to not believing in Jesus!
Originally posted by KellyJayIf you are claiming that people WILL be punished for being "unbelievers" then it means you agree with the notion of "justice" and "eternal torment" that was referenced in the OP.
I believe in a devil's hell, that all sinners who do not accept the offer given by God for forgiveness will find themselves in.
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Minus some of the religious art work, I found the entire video from start to finish insightful.
If you do listen, hear it out to the very end.
The speaker after the reader is Tim Keller who takes the most problematic aspects of Christian faith to discuss.
Does God send people to Hell ?
Originally posted by KellyJayRead your drivel before hitting the "Post" button and
People are being charged with things they do, the fact that Jesus is the
only escape for our bad behavior does not mean that people are punished
due to not believing in Jesus! They are punished because they are sinners
standing before a Holy God giving an account for their lives.
I believe in a devil's hell, that all sinners who do not accept the offe ...[text shortened]... ose that face God's wrath will not find any mercy in
the wrath of God in their judgment.
Kelly
you will give yourself a chance of not looking so dumb.
or just
SHUT UP
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Originally posted by FMFKelly Jay is trying to point out that the punishment is for sin not for being an unbeliever. However, one is not helped by being an unbeliever.
If you are claiming that people WILL be punished for being "unbelievers" then it means you agree with the notion of "justice" and "eternal torment" that was referenced in the OP.
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NKJV)
But, to believe God, as Abraham did, is counted for righteousness.
Originally posted by FMFAs I said, being an unbeliever does not help.
But, according to the theology, can sinners who are "believers" gain "eternal life" of the non-torment kind?
Can "unbelievers" gain it too?
And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
(Revelation 21:6-8 NKJV)
Originally posted by RJHindsSo "unbelievers" are punished then?
As I said, being an unbeliever does not help.
[b]And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers ...[text shortened]... hich burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
(Revelation 21:6-8 NKJV)[/b]
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Originally posted by FMFThat is they way I read it.
So "unbelievers" are punished then?
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 NKJV)
So it is the unbelievers in the truth that are unrighteous because of their sins.
What is the truth?
And Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life."
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Originally posted by FMFNo, I did not say that, they will be punished for SINS, SINS, SINS!
If you are claiming that people WILL be punished for being "unbelievers" then it means you agree with the notion of "justice" and "eternal torment" that was referenced in the OP.
If you SIN you will pay for your SINS.
Kelly
Originally posted by RJHindsSo "believers" can escape punishment for their sins, but all "unbelievers" are punished?
That is they way I read it.
[b]The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should be ...[text shortened]... not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 NKJV)[/b]